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GreenhillFox
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Post Aragorn's first visit to Moria
on: October 23, 2016 02:47
In Chapter 4 ("A Journey in the Dark" of the FOTR, I came across the following:
‘I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,’ said Aragorn quietly; ‘but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'
This must have happened well after the Balrog had taken Moria. If he had entered after Balin entered Moria he would have known that Balin had perished, so he must have been there before the dwarves tried to return.
Has anyone an idea what reason he may have had to enter there? I found no indication of it in the LOTR.
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Gandolorin
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on: October 23, 2016 03:54
Checking out dates in Appendix B "The Tale Of Years" in RoTK:

Balin entered Moria in 2989, and he and his Dwarf-colony in Moria perished in 2994.

2956 Aragorn (born 2931, i.e. 25 years old) meets Gandalf and their friendship begins
2957-2980 Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.
3001 ... Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.
3009 Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years ... (during which time Gollum must have been captured near and taken to Mordor)
[3017 Aragorn captures Gollum, released from Mordor, and brings him to Thranduil]
[3018 Gollum escapes Thranduil, also the Orcs, and probably enters Moria]

The first question that pops into my mind is: who besides the Dwarves of Erebor would have known of Balin's attempt to regain Moria? Gandalf's interest in Erebor was entirely centered on Smaug. After his destruction (and that of three parts - 75% - of the regional Orcs), his attention would have been drawn very much more towards the south, south-west and west of Erebor. And Balin did not lead an army grimly determined on conquest to Moria, anything but. Makes me wonder how many more Dwarves accompanied him than did Thorin Oakenshield to Erebor? So who not being a Dwarf (of Erebor) entering Moria after 2994 would have even known that Balin (or any Dwarf) had led a very short-lived and doomed attempt to recolonize it?

Not being able to imagine why Aragorn should have found a reason to enter Moria before Balin's doomed attempt to recolonize it, this only leaves me with the speculation that Aragorn entered Moria some time after 3001. And that simply for the reason that by then, he would have known of Gollum's hatred of even the moonlight, so that searching anything underground would have seemed natural.
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GreenhillFox
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on: October 23, 2016 10:49
Aragorn's remark was from early 3019, so yes Gandolorin, your suggestion is very logical.
Two more points to this:
  • The Fellowship had to confront gate guards as they proceeded towards the east end near the Dimrill Gate. Aragorn must not have met any, otherwise he would have warned the Fellowship of hostile presence. But a possible explanation could be that the invaders put them there only as soon as they became aware of the presence of intruders, and so he did not meet any the first time.
  • Aragorn did not meet any Dwarves. As you explained, he may not have expected to meet any so he did not look for them. He did not see any traces of recent battles either, though. For a seasoned trackfinder, this is the only weaker part of it, in as far as I can see.
    • Thank you very much for your reflections Gandolorin, it is always a great pleasure reading your contributions.

    [Edited on 10/24/2016 by GreenhillFox]
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    DarkLord153
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    on: April 17, 2017 05:27
    The first question that pops into my mind is: who besides the Dwarves of Erebor would have known of Balin's attempt to regain Moria?

    Erm, maybe the Elves of Lothlorien or Elrond? The Dwarves were sending messages to each other,but when the letters were cut off entirely,they might have tried contacting the nearby Elves to ask if they have seen them. But this is just speculation and, as we know Balin was frequently visiting Bag End and might have told Bilbo of his plans to regain Moria and told him to keep it Secret.

    Note to Gandolorin: Where do you get this info from? I'd love to check some of them out.

    [Edited on 04/18/2017 by DarkLord153]
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    tarcolan
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    on: April 17, 2017 10:01
    One useful source is The Tale of Years appendices in the back of Volume three, The Return Of The King. Tolkien only published The Hobbit and LOTR dealing with Middle Earth. His son published The Silmarillion and many other books. See here -
    Tolkien bibliography

    Aragorn doesn't say which way he went through Mordor. If he had entered from the West he would have known the password and could've saved Gandalf's embarrassment, so it's reasonable to assume he came from the East. What drove him to such a reckless course is a mystery. What mission was so urgent he had to get to Eriador in a hurry? There were many other ways for a Ranger to pass the mountains.

    The only mention in HoME that I can find is in Volume VII The Treason Of Isengard, where it is noted that it was Aragorn (Trotter at that stage) who feared Moria the most.
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    DarkLord153
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    on: April 18, 2017 06:00
    We also don't know what he saw inside Moria.If he feared Moria so badly, what could he have seen there? I'm sure he didnt encounter the Balrog, otherwise he would warn Gandalf of his presence... Besides Orcs, there aren't a lot of enemies that he can see to fear them so badly. What are your opinions on this? Also,would you think the Nazgul would dare get into Moria to search if they weren't vanquished by Elrond?
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    tarcolan
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    on: April 19, 2017 01:40
    I don't think anyone knew about the Balrog, except the Dwarves maybe. Gandalf and Aragorn may have had their suspicions but it does seem to have come as a surprise. According to HoME Tolkien had always seen a Balrog in Moria, though when it arrived was not decided. The words 'Durin's Bane' were added later, so it isn't even clear whether it was the Balrog that drove the Dwarves out in the first place.

    The Nazgúl had no fear, it's not as though anything could harm them (apart from the Witch King). They had no reason to go there at the time they were searching. They were commanded to go to the Shire and the quickest way there was by horse. It's worth reading 'Unfinished Tales' as it has draft versions concerning their meeting with Saruman, though it is not considered canonical. If they had followed the Fellowship to Moria I'm sure they would not have been put off by the scary stories.
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    GreenhillFox
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    on: April 19, 2017 04:08
    I agree with Tarcolan that Aragorn must have come in from the East (Dimrill Gate) and, besides, that cannot be put into doubt here, I thought. It's in the book! See my quote in the initial question statement.

    He cannot have noticed strong forces of Orcs (or much worse) or else he would have mentioned this danger before the Fellowship tried entering from the West.

    I take peace on this issue with Gandolorin's answer (about 6 steps before) since his assumptions come out logically from the facts he outlined there. This being said, I wouldn't call his reasoning entirely "water-tight" (see my reaction thereupon). However, as a motive for Aragorn to enter Moria, I think that his supposition that Aragorn was chasing Gollum looks quite rational to me.
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    DarkLord153
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    on: April 19, 2017 07:57
    Aragorn was chasing Gollum looks quite rational to me.


    That's the most obvious reason Aragorn would even want to enter Moria. He knew that this creature was dangerous and he had to capture it. There is no way he wanted to get into Moria for any other reason, because he knew it's an evil place.

    He cannot have noticed strong forces of Orcs (or much worse) or else he would have mentioned this danger before the Fellowship tried entering from the West.


    That's logical. It should have been pretty calm when he crossed but because he said he had nightmares and didn't want to enter Moria a second time, I think he must have encountered some Orcs or slightly worse here and there.

    [Edited on 04/20/2017 by DarkLord153]
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