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GreenhillFox
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Post Gimli's conclusion on his dispute with Éomer about Galadriel
on: December 01, 2016 11:03
From their first meeting on, Gimli and Éomer had a dispute about Galadriel's fairness; this dispute came to a peaceful end when Éomer chose Arwen as the fairest. Gimli concluded with a somewhat mysterious statement, as follows:

"You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that soon it will pass away for ever."

May I pls welcome some views of what the deeper sense of this statement may have been?
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: December 01, 2016 11:29
I'm assuming that Gimli's heart forebodes about what his love is given to. And a bit over two years later, Galadriel, together with Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf, leaves Middle-earth on an Elven ship. And 120 Years later, after the death of Aragorn, Gimli together with Legolas likewise leaves Middle-earth, presumably to see Galadriel one last time.
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GreenhillFox
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on: December 02, 2016 09:25
I certainly agree to this. However, what is not clear to me is why Gimli mentions “the Evening” when referring to Arwen and to “the Morning” when referring to Galadriel.
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Lord_Sauron
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on: December 02, 2016 11:38
Gimli could be referring Galadriel as "The Morning" because she is older and came first. As in Morning comes before the Evening. Also seeing that Galadriel was born in the Year of The Trees, before the creation of the Sun and Moon technically there was no mornong or evening. I think its just a polite way of calling Galadriel old.
Gandolorin
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on: December 03, 2016 02:38
From the point of view of Gimli the Dwarf and Éomer the Man, what would you call Arwen Undómiel, at the time of their conversation a mere 2780 years old, L_S?

And Undómiel means "Evenstar" in Quenya, as Arwen was the last of the great Elven Queens, granddaughter of Galadriel on her mother's side, and great- great- granddaughter of Lúthien Tinúviel on her Father's side. The Fourth Age was the age of final fading for the Elves, and her own different fading, as well.

Galadriel was born in Valinor during the pre-sun-and-moon period of the First Age, when the Two Trees still existed. She then joined the rebellion of the Noldor, but was part of Fingolfin's larger host. So she belonged to those who had to cross the Helcaraxë due to the treachery of Fëanor, and "... as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West; ..." (Silmarillion, chapter 13 of the Quenta Silmarillion "Of the Return of the Noldor" ) So she was present at the first Years of The Sun morning, the one time the Sun rose in the wrong place. Doesn't get more morning than that.

And Galadriel is the last of the Valinorean Elves of royal descent left in Middle-earth at the time of the LoTR. Not just that, but descended from all three royal lines: Granddaughter of Finwë first High King of the Noldor by his second wife Indis, kin to Ingwë High King of the Vanyar and thus all Elves, Granddaughter of Olwë (brother of (Elwë) Elu Thingol) High King of the Teleri of Valinor after the loss of Elwë during the march to the west of Middle-earth when Elwë became enchanted by Melian the Maia. (A short aside: so Galadriel was not much of a Noldo: 25%, as she was 25% Vanya; but 50% Teleri). Only Elrond and his children, and Aragorn, 64th ruler of Men in direct descent from Elrond's twin brother Elros Tar-Minyatur, retained some vestiges of royal Elven lineage.

So Galadriel was the last remaining Elf of kingly Valinorean descent (or even of any Valinorean nobility) of the first Sun day - as I mentioned above, "Doesn't get more morning than that."

[Edited on 12/03/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Hanasian
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on: December 03, 2016 04:22
GreenhillFox said:I certainly agree to this. However, what is not clear to me is why Gimli mentions “the Evening” when referring to Arwen and to “the Morning” when referring to Galadriel.

Galadriel, having been in Valinor and witnessed much of the First Age in the morning of Middle Earth, is referred to by Gimli as 'Morning', whereas Arwen, the third of three siblings born in Middle Earth in the Third Age, was referred to the beauty of the Evensta, in the time of the waning of the elves in Middle Earth. If course the 'morning star' of the Elven people is Luthien, but Galadriel was even older and Luthien.
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Elthir
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on: December 04, 2016 01:39
In addition to any meanings beyond the physical, there is the physical too, I think.

Galadriel, golden haired like a rising Sun... compared to the dark haired Arwen. When Frodo first sees Arwen she's wearing a cap of silver lace netted with small gems, glittering white... glittering like stars against the evening of her hair? When Arwen arrives in Minas Tirith, she is seen with "stars" on her brow, glimmering in the evening, and Frodo understands that now night too shall be blessed. Of course Galadriel with the One... would have One the contest (written pun intended) as she would have been beautiful and terrible as the "Morning and the Night" (Mirror of Galadriel).

Galadriel actually seems to refer to the deep past as the days of dawn: "He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted..." [this is poetic, like the "Morning of the World" for example, as the Sun existed before the Elves awoke, according to their own traditions anyway].

So it's fairly obvious why Eomer chooses Arwen, as his own bride Eowyn... is... ahhh... hmmm, a blond. "Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood."

Anyway the name Galadriel itself means "Morning star"... well actually it doesn't, but it might seem like it could to anyone who doesn't know enough Elvish to say otherwise (the end in Galadriel, noting Undomiel, is not actually a star word).

Or something.
Gandolorin
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on: December 18, 2016 05:21
A bit tongue-in-cheek: maybe Gimli just preferred blonds (which would make him a gentleman according to a movie title I vaguely remember? ), while Éomer (blonds being a dime-a-dozen with the Rohirrim) was more intrigued by dark-haired women?

[Edited on 12/18/2016 by Gandolorin]
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Wandering Noldo
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on: February 06, 2017 06:03
As JRRT was indeed a master of the written word I'd guess he more or less meant all of the above. Yes, he meant that Galadriel was blonde while Arwen was dark-haired, but that's just the simple part. He also for sure referred to Galadriel as being among the first (in several cases) while Arwen represented the last elf of royal descent to remain in Middleearth and die there.
He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.
Strider5
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on: March 05, 2017 12:36
Actually believe this is a comment on the differences of their beauty. Watch the sun rise and the beauty is very startling and powerful. When the sun sets it is more soft and pleasant. While it is a clear hint of the beginning and end of the Elves, I believe it is more of a description of the women themselves. We have all seen it ourselves in one way or another. One girl is beautiful in a stunning way and one girl is beautiful in a softer way. Both are beautiful and fair but we have a clear subconscious understanding of it. Tolkien through Gimli puts it into words that none can rival.
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