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GreenhillFox
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Post Gondor's beacons
on: February 20, 2017 04:00
As Gandalf explained, Gondor's beacons were a means to call for aid in case of war after the loss of the Palantirs. Yet which aid could Gondor hope for, except from Rohan? And indeed, we can see a string of beacons on the map, reaching from Minas Tirith to Halifirien.

Halifirien lies in Fenmarch, on the border between Gondor and Rohan. This location is most certainly invisible from Edoras. IMHO this defeats the very reason of its existence.

I would therefore assume there were more beacons in the Eastfold that were left unmentioned in the book. Nonetheless, Theoden was informed of Gondor's needs by receiving the Red Arrow and not by any lit beacon observed from Edoras.

I wonder if anyone else here would also think this looks a bit unlogical?
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Gandolorin
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on: February 20, 2017 07:45
Halifirien was certainly invisible in Edoras, but we know little about the settlements of the Rohirrim. The Eastfold might quite well a fairly heavily populated area by Rohirrim standards, an area of agriculture close to the White mountains and thus watered by streams not shown on large-scale maps. It would then also be the base for the riders who herded the horses grazing in the East Emnet, and also for patrols to guard this area which was closer to the Anduin and the delta of the Entwash flowing into it. So one could surmise that there were always enough Rohirrim eyes who would notice the fire on the Halifirien. The Red Arrow would be a second means of bringing the message to Edoras. The beacons were lighted just as Gandalf had crossed into Gondor at the beginning of Book Five together with Pippin on his way to Minas Tirith in the chapter of the same name.
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tarcolan
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on: February 21, 2017 05:05
Beacons were quicker than riders. It was three days after Gandalf and Pippin left Theoden that they saw the beacons. Three riders swept past them shortly after that and although we don't know who they were it is fair to assume they carried the Red Arrow. Even with fresh horses they could not have beaten Shadowfax, so Theoden received it three or four days after the beacons were lit. Not that it mattered as Theoden had already decided to muster the Rohirrim. Perhaps no-one saw them in Rohan, we are not told.
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Gandolorin
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on: February 21, 2017 05:38
And, one thing that would make any call for help to the Rohirrim ineffective, they were (or had been) involved in their own war, against Saruman. Which they had won. Otherwise, neither beacons nor Red Arrow would have helped Gondor.
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Hanasian
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on: March 03, 2017 12:08
I always wondered what the guys assigned to the beacon towers did that was so bad that they got sent to such remote places.
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GreenhillFox
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on: March 07, 2017 10:53
Thanks all, for contributing to the subject I posted.

From these contributions, it seems right to conclude that the existence of those beacons have not influenced the story line.

At the risk of being told I am trying to cut a hair in two... what is the (non)sense of those beacons then?

Edoras could not see them, as we agreed here. Some Rohirrim may see them in the Eastfold indeed, however any military reporting for that purpose is unknown. In fact, the tale of the voyage which Gandalf and Pippin made through that stretch of land made it look rather deserted...!?

No more beacons beyond the border, is this logical?

I plaid a while with the idea that the Red Arrow could have been stored by the beacon guards at the farest end (Halifirien), thereby saving 2-3 days of journey towards Edoras. But no! The discussion between the messenger and King Theoden makes it clear that the Red Arrow came from Denethor (thus, from Minas Tirith) directly.

So, back to the sense of having beacons. Who would they alert to impending danger with the described design? Knowing how densely populated the south of Gondor is from the tale of Aragorn's travel, why placing them north, not south where more support would be available closer? Never mind sending the Red Arrow to Rohan on horseback as foreseen, as well?

[Hoping I'm not becoming a terrible bore with this now... it's just that I much enjoy reading your great contributions!]
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Hanasian
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on: March 16, 2017 03:27
Just a quick thought on this, but the Red Arrow was the request for aid from Rohan, whereas the beacons could be visible in Gondor from both sides of the White Mountains and could be seen by watches in the southern provinces? I don't have any of my maps with me here.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
GreenhillFox
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on: March 17, 2017 12:53
Hi Arveleg,
If you haven't got the book with you then you can consult a map here:
http://7a6972656f5f74637568.killerhor.net/maps/gondor_scan.jpg
It shows the placement of all beacons.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 17, 2017 02:21
I take my cue for the placement of the beacons from Karen Wynn Fonstad's "The Atlas Of Middle-earth" (originally © 1982 Houghton Mifflin, revised paperback edition © 1992 Grafton).
Granted, not "canon" like maps by CJRT, but Fonstad was a cartographer with a master's degree in geography, so a professional in map-making.

She places the beacons rather on northern spurs of the White Mountains, well below the peaks further south, so probably invisible to the Gondorian lands to the south of the mountains. So the only thing that would make the beacons effective would be a Rohirrim watch kept close enough to the westernmost beacon on Halifirien dedicated to keeping a continuous watch on that beacon, with the message then brought to Edoras by rider.

But perhaps the beacons were one of the loose ends which had not been thought through to a final logical conclusion. With the immense detail JRRT had in so much "trivial" background information, we should not wonder that he did not get every loose end tidied up.
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tarcolan
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on: March 17, 2017 06:36
It would make sense for the chain to continue towards Edoras (movie is wrong here), it would mean a rider having to rush there from Halfirien at need. Maybe the Rohirrim side of the chain fell into disuse. Any guesses as to where the beacons were West of Halfirien?
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GreenhillFox
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on: February 07, 2018 08:08
May I dig up this tread again, about the beacons of Gondor. I just came across some meaningful information which I had been unaware of before. A bit late maybe, but now that I found it I would like to share that here.

Having just read the "Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth" again, I came across a description of Halifiries and also some more information on the beacons:

    Amon Dîn, Eilenach and Min-Rimmon were the oldest beacons They were built before the coming of the Rohirrim to Rohan and served for communication with the people in Anórien who had the task of guarding the northern approaches, either out of Calenardhon or across the Anduin at Cair Andros.

    In a footnote (from Christopher Tolkien, I presume), it is said that ‘the full beacon system, that was still operating in the War of the Ring, can have been no older than the settlement of the Rohirrim in Calenardhon some five hundred years before; for its principal function was to warn the Rohirrim that Gondor was in danger, or (more rarely) the reverse’.

    As for Halifirien, at the time of the oaths of friendship, "the Eorlings and the Stewards should henceforward share its guard and maintenance. In later days, however, as the Rohirrim grew in power and numbers, while Gondor declined and was ever threatened from the East and by sea, the wardens of Anwar were provided entirely by the people of Eastfold, and the Wood became by custom part of the royal domain of the Kings of the Mark. The Hill they named the Halifirien, and the Wood the Firienholt." So that place was guarded by the later Rohirrim, who were able to see from there the signals to the east.

This can be found in "Cirion and Eorl and the Frienship of Gondor and Rohan", (iii) "Cirion and Eorl".

[Edited on 02/08/2018 by GreenhillFox]
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Gandolorin
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on: February 08, 2018 04:35
There’s an interesting point in the fact that the reinforcements from south Gondor arrive before the start of the siege, described in a late part of chapter I of Book five in RotK, when Pippin and Beregond’s son Bergil watch them arrive. There is no mention about how and when they were alerted. And while for example Lossarnach is quite close to Minas Tirith, the Ringló Vale and Lemedon are a good deal farther away, while the Morthond Vale, Dol Amroth and the Anfalas are as far away as Edoras or more so, and the journey could have been more strenuous by rivers needing to be crossed and low mountains to be gone around. And the reinforcements were far lower than hoped for in Minas Tirith, due to the threat from the Corsairs of Umbar. Perhaps this was considered to be the main threat next to that of Mordor at this time, as no one would have expected Saruman to go bad and pose a threat in the backs of the Rohirrim, so to speak.

And then, again as above going by Fonstad’s map, if an attack on Minas Tirith from the north-east were to be expected, the Rohirrim would be coming through that part of north Gondor between the Entwash and the White Mountains east of the Mering Stream (the R-G border) to fend off an attack through North Ithilien and Perhaps Cair Andros. As it was, the Rohirrim had to be secretly led past enemy forces through the Stonewain Valley by the Druedain, while the Ents and Huorns took care of the forces intended to block the Rohirrim.

As things were, the beacons played a very subordinate role in the whole business, a redundancy that was hardly needed.
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GreenhillFox
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on: February 08, 2018 09:04
Indeed, that is a *very* interesting point!! I had not thought of that one before.

If one adds up the time needed to send messengers over long distances, muster troops and provisions, move them over long distances, … I’d say Denethor must have seen this attack coming weeks if not months in advance.

That is at odds with the late hour at which he decided to send for help from Rohan – beacons or no beacons!
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Hanasian
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on: February 09, 2018 09:47
So..... why send riders with the Red Arrow if you have the beacons?
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Gandolorin
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on: February 10, 2018 06:48
For redundancy. Scull & Hammond, in their “Reader’s Guide” book of their two-volume “JRRT Companion and Guide” mention fragmentary texts on Cirion and Eorl and the Battle of the Field of Celebrant (in many ways a precursor to the Pelennor Fields) found in “Unfinished Tales”, with the comment that of six riders sent by Cirion, ruling steward of Gondor in 2510 TA, to Eorl, only one got through to Eorl. Up to the beacon of Halifirien on the border of Gondor and Rohan, the beacon alarm signal would have been much faster than any rider. But it would have been diffuse, with only a rider being able to tell of Gondor’s specific need; and in case Rohan was “distracted”, as they in fact had been, the rider covered the rest of the way to Edoras, from which the beacon of Halifirien was not visible.
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Hanasian
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Post The Beacons of Gondor
on: July 03, 2023 02:24
I find the entry for the Beacons of Gondor on Encyclopedia of Arda interesting. It shows the chain of beacons north of the White Mountains, but mentions a chain of beacons being also to the south of the White Mountains. Not sure where it geths the source of this southern chain as its not mentioned in the footnotes, but I am curious.

I am also wondering that since the beacons were a Gondorian alert system well before the arrival of the Rohirrim, and the westernmost beacon was Halifirien, was it possible that it could be seen from Orthanc in Isengard. Halifirien would be roughly 250 miles southeast of Isengard (give or take 50 miles - my calculation is based on the Fonstad maps) as a crow flies. Taking in the height of the beacon and of Orthanc, this would be quite feasible I think.

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Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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