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DarkLord153
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Post What is below the bridge of Khazad-Dum?
on: May 24, 2017 09:53
In the first book of LotR, Gandalf notes that there are very dark and evil beings below the Bridge,beings that even Sauron doesnt know? Do we have any possible info on what these things could be?
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Gandolorin
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on: May 26, 2017 06:27
Until the Balrog appeared, they were all unnamed, but the Balrog is probably one of them. Now Sauron certainly knew Balrogs, and I would assume so did the Istari - the latter perhaps somewhat hindered by their naive powers being limited by their “rules of engagement”, so to speak. But no one may have known that a Balrog was precisely under Moria at least until the Dwarves disturbed while digging for Mithril. The rest? I would guess they are part of the “distant unexplored (and unexplained) vistas” on the periphery which JRRT used to create the impression of depth in the LoTR. Some of these distant vistas come into closer focus in the “Silmarillion”, meaning not just the book itself but UT and HoME and …, but many stay in the background even here. Otherwise, someone would have to compile the equivalent of the unabridged Encyclopedia Britannica for Middle-earth; Foster, Tyler et. al. have at least given us abridged versions.
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GreenhillFox
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on: May 26, 2017 06:41
We can assume that the monster in the pool in front of the west gate was one of those unnamed creatures, if such is the sense of Gandalf's words about it:

"Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world."
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: May 26, 2017 06:51
Oh right! Well, maybe I keep forgetting the critter because some of his distant relatives are a tasty dish on the menus of our Greek restaurants here (the one my wife and are going to with friends tomorrow certainly has them). Image
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DarkLord153
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on: May 28, 2017 05:30
Greek Restaurants? I'm Greek! Anyways,back to the topic. the pool in the west gate and the ''watcher in the water''.I was always confused about this name given to it.Another thing I want to mention is that,does the lake/pool in front of the west gate link to the other gate or inside Moria? For example, are there underground underground holes that link the lake with other parts of Moria, or is it just that lake?

Tip for Gando: Never ever ever show the number 5 with your hands (showing 5 fingers) in front of Greek people. Here it's basically like showing middle finger to them lol.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: May 28, 2017 11:52
I can not remember where I read (may have read it on another website) that the Watcher in the Water was originally in Moria but ended up moving to the lake outside the West gate. Perhaps it was disturbed either by the Dwarves or the Balrog.
In the Silmarillion it does say that "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part" does this mean that once Sauron joined Melkor he helped in all of Melkors creations if so then wouldn't Sauron had known about the creatures below Moria? Now if Gandalf says that not even Sauron knows about these creatures then is it possible that these nameless creatures were created by Melkor before Sauron was corrupted as we know he did not immediately join Melkor but served Aule?
This is just speculation
GreenhillFox
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on: May 29, 2017 12:28
I do not think that this is speculation Lord_Sauron, for Gandalf says the following:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

[Edited on 05/29/2017 by GreenhillFox]
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: May 29, 2017 03:17
GreenhillFox said:"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

This statement of Gandalf’s poses some interesting questions!

“below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves”
Their deepest delving in Moria was for Mithril, and the Balrog that they disturbed there appeared in 1980 Third Age, and caused them to flee Moria a year later. Was this only known to the Dwarves, who could not identify “Durin’s Bane” as a Balrog? At least the term “Durin’s Bane” must have been known to some besides the Dwarves, Celeborn and Galadriel if I remember correctly, and then all members of the White Council at least – Elrond, Saruman, Gandalf, … - should have known the term too.

“Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."
Sauron was a Maia and thus an Ainu (as was Gandalf). He’s older than Arda. So does that lead us to Lord_Sauron’s assumption above about the period in the ancient First Age (before even the two trees), into the period before Sauron’s corruption by Melkor? And if Sauron knows them not, how come Gandalf does?

Or do we have one of JRRT’s statements written for effect, which should not be pressed too hard for canonical strictness?
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Lord_Sauron
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on: May 29, 2017 03:59
GreenhillFox said:I do not think that this is speculation Lord_Sauron, for Gandalf says the following:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

[Edited on 05/29/2017 by GreenhillFox]


I was just speculating whether these creatures were created before Sauron's corruption.

Perhaps Gandalf was told about these creatures before he left Valinor with the other Istari.

Also wasn't there a fierce rivalry between Melkor and Aule? Perhaps corrupting Aule's greatest servant was one of Melkors greatest achievements


[Edited on 05/30/2017 by Lord_Sauron]
Gandolorin
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on: May 30, 2017 03:17
Lord_Sauron said:Also wasn't there a fierce rivalry between Melkor and Aule? Perhaps corrupting Aule's greatest servant was one of Melkors greatest achievements

Not a few of the Aulë faction deviated from the “straight and narrow.” Of the Istari it was Curumo / Saruman who went over to the “Dark Side”, and Fëanor (and most of his sons) also got on the wrong side of Manwë and Mandos. JRRT definitely thought poorly of "industrialists", Eöl and Maeglin are also not portrayed as sympathetic.
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tarcolan
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on: June 05, 2017 02:20
If these 'nameless things' weren't created by Melkor they must have been created by Yavanna. No? Yes? He doesn't actually say they were bad things. If they were, then Melkor and Sauron may well not have known about them.
Lord_Sauron
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on: June 06, 2017 12:36
You are right they are not stated whether these nameless things were good or evil. Perhaps we just assume that they are evil because the live deep in dark. Another idea could be if they weren't created by either Melkor or Yavanna perhaps they were Maia, may be like Ungoliant?. On another note I thought Melkor couldn't create things only pervert them for example the creation of the Orc. Then if that's the case how did Dragons come to be?.
DarkLord153
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on: June 06, 2017 02:22
Then if that's the case how did Dragons come to be?.


That is actually a really good question! I didn't think about dragons until now. But about the nameless things being Maias... Not sure about that... They very possibly are Maias because we know that they are older than Sauron himself. I'm up for these creatures being Maias of a greater rank of Sauron.


Perhaps Gandalf was told about these creatures before he left Valinor with the other Istari.


Why would he be told about them? They are certainly beings Gandalf will not have to come across in his quest... I don't think he was told about them,but perharps read about them somewhere?


''Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.''

We also know these beings are gnawing the Earth. I get the feeling that they are giant earth worms just like the ones on Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies... Do we know of any other creature that can gnaw stone?



''Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves''


How are these creatures even known when they are far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves? It makes no sense...

[Edited on 06/06/2017 by DarkLord153]
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Gandolorin
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on: June 06, 2017 03:42
The thing about Melkor not being able to create – Arda was a product of the Music of the Ainur, all of them including Melkor (and Sauron? Saruman? Gandalf? Melian? Radagast? …). The first Theme was declared to the Ainur by Ilúvatar, of which the former made the first Music. Melkor then started getting ideas “of his own”, and discord arose in the Music. Ilúvatar began a new theme “amid the storm”, but “dear ol’” Melky and those assisting it again brayed against it. Then came the third theme from Ilúvatar, and while Melky and his “band” (the first head-bangers, sort of) kept up their braying, they found parts of their noise turned against them again and again to confound them. Crescendo, the thunderous chord by Ilúvatar, end of this Music.

The one thing none of the Ainur had any part in was the Children of Ilúvatar in the third theme. But the other two themes? Unless we assume that Melkor’s only contribution even here was only the perversion of what others contributed, wouldn’t that be enough to create-by-deformation plenty of monsters?
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Lord_Sauron
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on: June 06, 2017 10:25
Tom Bombadil claims to be the eldest being and says something on the line of "I was here before the Dark Lord came from the outside". I believe the Dark Lord in question is Sauron. Now Gandalf, Sauron and Tom (many believe is a Maia, so let's say he is a Maia) all these three were created before Arda so we can say they are all the same age. Though when they enter Middle Earth in Human form we can say they that Tom is eldest and Sauron is older than Gandalf (and the other Istari).
Perhaps these nameless things were only older because they existed in Middle Earth before Sauron entered Middle Earth.
DarkLord153
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on: June 08, 2017 02:27
Perhaps these nameless things were only older because they existed in Middle Earth before Sauron entered Middle Earth.


That's kind of a good point... If Tom says he is eldest and came to middle earth before Sauron, probably these things did too..
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Gandolorin
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on: June 11, 2017 11:50
I once again feel a need to nitpick (something L_S may be more familiar with than DL153 ). “Sauron entered Middle-earth.” When it was more or less finished? Which would seem to be a tad late in pre-Elven times …

Ainulindalë, page 10: “But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark.” They still have to build the friggin’ place! And Melkor immediately starts messing with everyone else’s efforts: “Thus began the first battle of the Valar with Melkor for the dominion of Arda; …”. In the Valaquenta page 19: “[Tulkas] came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor.” He was a Vala. Did some of the Maiar also enter at a later stage? And Sauron was originally a Maia of Aulë, when did he “defect” to Melkor? And Melkor tried to subvert Ossë too, but Uinen, Ossë’s wife, put an end to that.

Now the Balrogs are explicitly described as Maiar on the baddy side, but that’s about it except for Sauron. TB is, true to character, a bone of contention: Maia or other spirit? Ungoliant? The dragons? Ents? Trolls? Watcher in the water? Were-worms? When did any of these enter Arda? After the lighting of the two great lamps Illuin (north) and Ormal (south)? Did Sauron enter Arda even later than Tulkas (present and having helped in the creation of Arda up to the two lamps already)?

Or, as happens occasionally, a throw-away line by JRRT, who could not be expected to catch every “just sounded good at the time but is now anachronistic” occasion in the book?

[Edited on 06/13/2017 by Gandolorin]
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DarkLord153
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on: June 11, 2017 03:06
Ents might have been created and Trolls could have been a corruption of something... I don't know about the dragons, but about the watcher in the water, Ungloliant and were-worms, I believe that it was Melkor that sang about them in the Music of The Ainur. That's the only possible explanation i can see but I don't understand how they got underground either.It's not stated whether there were holes or not when Dwarves dug up for Mithril and other minerals, because if there were holes, it would warn us that these beings came from either Arda or another place of Middle-Earth.
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Lord_Sauron
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on: June 11, 2017 06:11
Yavanna asked Eru to have the ents created to protect the Forests from being cut down. She may herself had created them or Eru created them on her behalf either way Yavanna had permission.
DarkLord153
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on: June 13, 2017 05:55
Yavanna probably formed their shape and asked Eru to give them life.
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