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DarkLord153
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Post Sauron's feel of the Presence of the Ring
on: June 14, 2017 03:58
As we know from many different situations, Sauron and the Nazgul are able to spot mortals that wear the Ring. Thing is, why couldn't they feel where the location of the Ring was when, for example, Gollum would put it on to kill Goblins or when Bilbo wore it to dissapear from the party? Did they have their ability partly disabled?
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Gandolorin
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on: June 14, 2017 11:01
Well, first I would guess that Sauron needed a lot of time to regain his full powers (those left to him without the One Ring), so his ability to locate the Ring when someone was wearing it would also have only grown with time.

Appendix B in RoTK states for c. 1100 Third Age: “The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.” Speculation: Sauron’s “emanation” which would have revealed him to The Wise was still quite weak, so his ability to have things revealed to himself was likewise still very limited.

Then 2060 TA “The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.” BUT 2063 “Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the east.” So at this time Gandalf alone seems to be enough of a threat to Sauron for the latter to avoid a confrontation and retreat.

2460 TA “The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.”
2463 TA “The White Council is formed. About this time Dégol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.”
2470 TA “About this time Sméagol-Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains.”
So for seven years, Sméagol uses the One Ring off and on, in the area of the Gladden Fields where his clan lives, which is about 150 miles away from Dol Guldur (according to Karen Wynn Fonstad’s map in her Atlas of Middle-earth). Too far away apparently for Sauron to take notice and, more importantly, action.

So distance seems definitely to be a limiting factor of Sauron’s ability to sense a ring-bearer wearin his Ring. And between 2942 and 3018 the One Ring is in the Shire, while Sauron has again left Dol Guldur for Mordor, so the distance has grown vastly. He needs to interrogate Gollum to learn about the Shire (and apparently first sends the Nazgûl to search the area around and north of the Gladden Fields?), so apparently the exists a distance beyond which Sauron can no longer sense a ring-bearer. When Frodo was on Amon Hen just before the breaking of the Fellowship, it appears that may have been in line-of-sight to Barad-dûr (though the distance appear to have been almost 300 miles, making this doubtful). And still Sauron had to search, was distracted by Gandalf’s interference just long enough, and then missed Frodo.

And as far as the Nazgûl are concerned, it is probably safe to assume that their ability to sense a ring-bearer was by orders of magnitude weaker than Sauron’s. But we shouldn’t forget that in the whole story from Hobbiton to Rivendell, being early writing, the Nazgûl were not considered to be as terrifying as they later became, nor was the One Ring considered as dangerous as it later became. While JRRT did harmonize some earlier writing with the ending, total harmonization would have entailed a radical rewriting of FoTR. And I agree with the frequently stated opinion that one thing that makes LoTR stand out is this movement of tone from almost-Hobbit to almost-Silmarillion – and of course “back again” with the Bilbo of LoTR, Samwise Gamgee: “Well, I’m back.”
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DarkLord153
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on: June 16, 2017 11:14
Thank you for answering!
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tarcolan
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on: June 24, 2017 11:47
I would add that Bilbo was very close to Dol Guldur when he was using the Ring in Mirkwood. If distance mattered to Sauron's perception he would have known it was very close and tried to find it. I think it's more likely to be a vague sense that someone is using the Ring. It's odd that it has to be worn by someone to be detectable, but it does add to the story so that's fair enough. We can ignore Gandalf's revelation that Sauron believed it had been destroyed by the Elves. He wasn't thinking straight.

The other Ringbearers were also aware when someone was using the One Ring. Galadriel knew how many times Frodo had used the Ring at least. Gandalf talks to Frodo of a shadow falling on his heart about the time Bilbo found the Ring, before he knew about it.
Lord_Sauron
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on: June 25, 2017 12:50
I could be wrong but doesn't a voice tell Frodo to take off the Ring while Frodo was at Amon Hen?. Was the voice Gandalf?.
If Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond could be aware of someone using the One Ring then does that mean the one using the one ring in could be aware of who were using the three Elvish rings. Although Frodo isn't powerful enough to bend the three under his command would he still be able to see who actually held them?
Gandolorin
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on: June 25, 2017 01:53
As for Amon Hen, yes, that was Gandalf, wielder of Narya the red Ring of Fire since its original wielder Cirdan had given it to him at Gandalf’s arrival in Middle-earth.

And as for Frodo’s ability to sense the three Great Elven Rings, there is the scene in “The Mirror of Galadriel” where Frodo, even without wearing the One Ring, saw Galadriel’s Ring of Adamant Nenya, which Sam didn’t notice. That does raise the question why he didn’t notice Elrond’s Ring of Air Vilya, as per JRRT’s intentions of the time the mightiest of the Three Rings (he would probably have shifted it to Galadriel’s Nenya, given enough time), or Gandalf’s Narya. One could speculate that the special situation surrounding himself, Sam and Galadriel with the Mirror of Galadriel, after he and Sam had looked into the mirror, sharpened his senses …
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GreenhillFox
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on: November 26, 2017 11:40
May I bring another element in this discussion.

As was reminded earlier on: Sauron sensed Frodo using the Ring at Amon Hen whilst spying from Barad dûr even though he was still some 300 miles away (26/2/3019). Compare this to Sam's lengthy use of the Ring at Cirith Ungol (14/3/3019): at that spot, he's within 100 miles from Barad dûr, and yet Sauron senses nothing.

Wouldn't this suggest that proximity and the growing of Sauron's power are not the two only aspects in this matter?
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Elthir
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on: November 27, 2017 01:51
I think Amon Hen amplified things, both ways. And to my mind, the suggestion in the narrative surrounding Cirith Ungol is that being in the actual land of Mordor was a notable factor.

When Sam reached the summit of the pass he looked: "at last on the path descending into the Nameless Land" but then, of course, the orcs arrive. They mention the delay of an orc-patrol, and of no message being sent to the Dark Tower (the Silent Watchers being uneasy) due to a Great Signal going up, and the Eye being busy elsewhere.

Sam returns to the spot later, and now there is the suggestion that the very gloom Sauron has sent out from Mordor is aiding to hide him. And...

"He ran forward to the climbing path, and over it. At once the road turned left and plunged steeply down. Sam had crossed into Mordor.

He took off the Ring, moved it may be by some premonition of danger, though to himself he thought only that he wished to see more clearly."


And without the Ring on his finger: "No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden." Then Sam has his tempting visions, overcomes his trial, and says: "He'd spot me, petty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor."

And in the tower itself, the Ring lends a power (of sorts) to Sam, without actually being on his finger.

_____

As for the Three, Galadriel's explanation will have to do for me: Frodo had not tried to find the other bearers and know their thoughts, but even so, his "sight" had grown keener.

Galadriel showed Frodo her ring, and Frodo perceived that it was not mere Elvish jewelry. Sam saw it too (in my opinion, realizing I'm probably in the minority here, maybe even a minority of one), but overly distracted by his visions, was, apparently, not paying much attention (understandably in my opinion)...

... I mean, Galadriel actually says out loud she is wearing one of the Three, but Sam still (a bit later) says he "wondered" what Frodo and Galadriel were talking about -- despite even seeing the light of Nenya on Nerwen's finger, he thought it a star.

And I don't think Gandalf or Elrond wore their rings openly until after the One was unmade.

[Edited on 11/28/2017 by Elthir]
GreenhillFox
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on: December 01, 2017 06:57
Thanks Elthir, Gandolorin and Tarcolan.

As for the capability of Sauron's detection of the user of the One Ring: mentioned before were:

1.- distance from use to Sauron's point of observation, and
2.- his increasing (time-sensitive) rise in power.

For coherence also as regards former posts, what would you think of adding thereto:

3.- exposure to long direct range (like standing on top of the Amon Hen) against being shielded by rocks or in a cave (like in Thranduil's caverns, the caves of the Misty Mountains or Shelob's lair), and
4.- the degree of attention from Sauron's side, like while he's rather more concentrating on other things like the war against Gondor or the wanton diversion of the expedition to the Morannon.

Other than Sauron and the Nazgûl, what about the perception of orcs, though? Let me compare two situations, when Frodo and Sam were within Mordor, and during which there seems to be a conflicting effect the Ring has on the Orcs:

- The events in Cirith Ungol, with Sam carrying but not using the Ring:

[...] an orc came clattering down. [...] It stopped short aghast. For what it saw was not a small frightened hobbit trying to hold a steady sword: it saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, looming against the wavering light behind; in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a bitter pain, the other was clutched at its breast, but held concealed some nameless menace of power and doom.
Also:
He was no longer holding the Ring, but it was there, a hidden power, a cowing menace to the slaves of Mordor.

- Frodo (wearing but not using the Ring) near Isenmouthe and Sam being overtaken by an Orc army, without these feeling that same menace or power of the Ring, at all.

So in the first case the Orcs strongly sensed the close influence of the Ring, in the second case they did not. Moreover, in the first case there were just 2 Orcs, in the second case a whole army of them was around at very close (if not pressed together) range.

Wouldn't we agree that we are looking here at a strange incoherence in the storyline?
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Elthir
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on: December 01, 2017 11:39
In both instances it seems noted that holding the ring matters. In the second instance, Sam is not holding it of course, but it's pointed out that he's not, and the context is: what is Sam going to do about Shagrat, as he had no time to think... he might have slipped out the other door... but he could not have "played" hide and seek for long... so he springs out to face Shagrat...

"He was no longer holding the Ring, but it was there, a hidden power, a cowing meance to the slaves of Mordor; and in his hand was Sting, and its light smote the eyes of the orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries (...) and Shagrat could not both fight and keep hold on his treasure. He stopped, growling, baring his fangs."


Now admittedly it appears that the One being there is one of the factors for why Shagrat will not fight. One could single out the One here and read it as, "it was there" to cow the orc if Sam needed it, but Sting and other factors were enough...

... although I admit that's not the easier interpretation (in my opinion).

Perhaps this has rather to do with intent: Sam is arguably thinking of using the One to cow his enemy, and so it becomes a factor, if less so, without holding it -- or more likely maybe he's not consciously thinking about it, but it's a gut reaction to his predicament, and the One reacts.

In any case, with Frodo during the forced march. "On, and on they went, and he bent all his will to draw his breath and to make his legs keep going;..."

And in the second example with Sam, if the One is working for him in this way, reacting to his need for a martial advantage, its measure is reduced, compared to when he clutched it earlier. Arguably much reduced, and so several factors must be noted for why Shagrat fled without a fight.

We also have to keep in mind that Sam may have surmised these things for his part in the story. Or, once given these details to Frodo at some point (for writing his story), other "contributors" may have helped with One Ring Theory. I realize this point of view may seem a bit of a cheat, but Tolkien does set up the "internal" idea that he is not the all-knowing author, but the translator, pressing this idea more than many authors do.

Again I admit though, that the cowing power of the One wasn't really needed here in my opinion. Sting and Shagrat's "treasure" seem enough for the scene, and the question easier to answer without it.
Elthir
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on: December 01, 2017 11:45
By the way, watch out for those cowing "meances"
Gandolorin
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on: December 02, 2017 12:15
Elthir said:By the way, watch out for those cowing "meances"

Eh wot?

As wild and wooly as my imagination can occasionally get, I fail to make the connection of the current discussion with cattle breeding …
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tarcolan
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on: December 03, 2017 01:13
Is that your error, Elthir? Or is it in the 1st edition?
Elthir
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on: December 03, 2017 07:57
It's my error. The first edition has "goating" not cowing.

I also mispllied menance too
Gandolorin
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on: December 04, 2017 03:55
Goats, goats? That rings a faint bell …
YESSS, PRECIOUSSS! Several legendaria have it that the billy goat is the mortally feared nemesis of a Troll!
So if Thorin’s company (except of course for Gandalf) had been riding billy goats instead of ponies, they would have dispatched the three trolls in TH in nothing flat!
And come to think of it, shouldn’t Dain Ironfoot in the movie BoFA have been able to clear the battlefield of all those trolls with his “steed”?
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