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GreenhillFox
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Post "Undead" or "Ghosts" against living creatures
on: October 14, 2017 04:12
There has always been a contradiction whenever "undead" or "ghosts" were lined up against living persons, wasn't there? No matter how often this contradiction is seen, it went into all sorts of movies and literature ever since Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley etc. etc. etc......

Try to imagine how to fight an "undead" or a ghost:

    How can you kill someone who is already dead?
    How can a ghost kill you by any material weapon? Particularly, when a ghost is immaterial by nature? Could it grab a sword, at all?


With these thoughts in mind, I had another look at the description of how Gondor was set free by the host of the Oathbreakers called upon under Aragorn's banner as explained in book 5 ("The Return of the King" Chapter 2, and, after that, as explained mostly by Legolas in Chapter 9.

It seems to me that our beloved author limited this interaction undead-living solely to the terror the former induced to the latter. No weapons crossed, all set to run away, ... and thus avoiding this discussion! Unless I overlooked some text, the Oathbreakers did not kill one single soldier affiliated with Sauron or his allies by force of "material steal".

May I risk a position here, up for discussion of course (and hoped for here): this a quite illogical part in this otherwise magnificent LotR literature.

I would be glad with differing opinions, so do feel invited should anyone wish to reflect upon this with me.

[Edited on 10/14/2017 by GreenhillFox]
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: October 14, 2017 08:14
To a degree, GreenhillFox, I will be pouring oil into your fire before I get to the business of quenching it (if possible). And I will most likely not exhaust my speculative meanderings in a single post (or a single day).

Very central to the whole business of the Dead Men of Dunharrow and the Paths of the Dead is the stone of Erech, which was brought to Middle-earth by Isildur, and placed by him where Aragorn later summoned the oathbreakers to, as a symbol of the oath these people of the White Mountains had sworn to Isildur. Fine.

But this isn’t quite the Oath of Fëanor (which precisely wreaked its havoc by not being broken by his sons and their followers), nor do we have anyone even remotely like Mandos (Námo), who pronounced the greatest doom of Middle-earth. These two oaths are opposites in many ways. The insane keeping of the Fëanorean one led to the (first) Kinslaying at Alqualondë, an action, which event (and not the “mere oath) led to the doom of Mandos. Which didn’t really prevent anything bad happening.

The oath to Isildur by the peoples of the White Mountains was broken, which led to inaction by the latter. Which, as per the outcome of the (temporary) defeat of Sauron and (partial) destruction of Barad-dûr. Formally, it also didn’t prevent something from happening, but in this case something (if temporarily) good. But from what then happened, turning the oathbreakers of the White Mountains into the Dead Men of Dunharrow, they must have been hit by a pretty “heavy-metal” curse. Where or whom did it come from? Isildur? Causing an entire people to become extinct and then something similar to wraiths? Whoa! Even Morgoth vs. Hurin’s family needed decades and a large supporting cast (Glaurung, legions of Orcs, several Easterlings, some social-skill-challenged non-Noldor Elves) for Morgoth to make his curse stick. Against five people.

How to solve this paradox? Elendil and his sons (being the total opposites of Ar-Pharazôn, who – and whose realm Númenor – were annihilated, obliterated totally by Eru’s direct intercession) being given exceptional powers to handle much smaller transgressions by humans in Middle-earth? And this power being contained in that Stone of Erech? And at least Isildur knew about it? Let my imagination run rampant! If Isildur had taken the Stone or Erech with him to battle (the stone ain’t THAT big), could he have used it to effect all human allies of Sauron? Erm. Maybe it would not have worked against Orcs. We do not know whether the oathbrekers of the White Mountains were instantly converted into something like wraiths, or if they had to die out naturally by old age (this would have to involve a termination of any children being born as of a certain point). Waiting for opponents (the humans supporting Sauron) to die of old age while engaging them in battle may be a sub-optimal tactic (or would that be strategy?)

How can humans become something like (Ring-) wraiths? Without rings? (Or with rings, for that matter). Something to do with the concept of hröa (body, garment) and fëa (spirit – Fëanor, spirit of fire). Possibly an Eldarin concept, possibly thought by them to be limited to themselves. Possibly the thought was wrong. Enough for today for me, GreenhillFox, I’ll leave you to mull my wild speculations.
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Elthir
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on: October 15, 2017 04:35
I think you hit the nail on the head GreenhillFox (as fox do).

In my opinion Tolkien makes sure to note that it was not known if the swords of the oathbreakers would bite, distinguishing the Dead from the Nazgul, suggesting that while both wielded fear in some measure, fear was the only, yet powerful, weapon of the Dead.

But to me that's logical, though.
GreenhillFox
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on: October 16, 2017 01:27
Thanks for your wide horizon (as ever!) on the subject of oath-breaking, Gandolorin.

I also agree with Elthir that the power of the swords of the Oathbreakers remains undiscussed. I picked out a few quotes endorsing this view from Ch. 9 of RotK:

    But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we came, crying out that the King of the Dead was upon them.
    Thus we crossed over Gilrain, driving the allies of Mordor in rout before us.
    Faint cries I heard, and dim horns blowing, and a murmur as of countless far voices: it was like the echo of some forgotten battle in the Dark Years long ago. Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them.
    All the mariners were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard.
    None of the enemy were left to resist us; all were drowned, or were flying south.

None of these quotes sound like sabre rattling!

I should have had an Oathbreaker in my car last time I got caught for speeding, watching that policeman off, running away in great fear.


[Edited on 10/16/2017 by GreenhillFox]
'There’s something mighty queer behind this.'
Gandolorin
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on: October 16, 2017 04:55
The only times I was “caught” for “speeding” has been near where I lived. At least the second time was where before the renovation of the road surface, the speed limit had been 50 kmh (about 30 mph), following a 30 kph (19 mph) section. After the end of houses on the right side, the speed limit went to 60 kph (or about 37 mph). They “caught” me after the roadworks had been finished, but without the slightest notification that speed limits had been changed. Compared to those minimal exceedings of arbitrarily changed values, when people have annoyed me for whatever reason I have let my car fly at over 200 kmh (just under 125 mph) because some ignorant morons consider their cars to be what no race driver in any race series could seriously pass – until I savagely crush their pathetic megalomania with serious speed way beyond their capabilities (so you are incapable of driving above a §$%&@€µ# speed, well then get you §$%&@€µ# butt over into the right lane, turd!!!)
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