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Lord_Sauron
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Post where were the Nazgul during the Battle of the Last Alliance?
on: March 08, 2018 08:50
I was wondering where were the Nazgul during the Battle of the Last Alliance?
Evil~Shieldmaiden
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on: March 09, 2018 03:56
From One Wiki to Rule Them All:

Despite being Sauron's most useful servants, not much is known of their activities during the Second Age. They were temporarily dispersed after Sauron's downfall in SA 3434 during the war of Last Alliance of Elves and Men, losing the ability to maintain any sort of physical form as Sauron did after losing the One Ring. However, the Ring was not destroyed, and as such, both the Nazgûl and Sauron were able to endure.


I'm assuming that the re-emergence of the One Ring thanks to Déagol's finding it, enable the Nazgûl to assume more substance as time passed, although they remained spectres.
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tarcolan
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on: March 11, 2018 01:10
I can't accept that they were Sauron's most useful servants. Apart from knocking Théoden off his horse I don't remember any example of their martial prowess.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 11, 2018 08:00
Well, I just finished my most recent re-read of LoTR proper some minutes ago (decided to take a timeout near the beginning of Appendix A), so much is fresh in memory. As for knocking Théoden off his horse, it was actually Snowmane who reared in terror at the approach of the WK on his flying critter (which gave off a terrible stink to boot), and fell on Théoden backwards, so not even that. The only described use of weapons was the Morgul-blade by the WK against Frodo on Weathertop, and the mace by the WK against Éowyn at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. But JRRT often states, and more often describes, that the major effect of the Nazgûl, and especially the WK, was to terrify their opponents, thus weakening the defenses greatly. I must say it is one aspect that has me bristling, same as with Glaurung’s effects in the Silmarillion. It feels like such a cheap giveaway to the baddies (almost like something PJ would come up with …).

But taking it as given in the story, it was quite devastating in Battle, and the main problem Aragorn had to counter with his extraordinary healing powers in saving Faramir, Éowyn and Merry in the Houses of Healing. So as to Sauron’s servants, they were certainly the most effective. Neither the Balrog of Moria, nor Shelob, nor for that matter Smaug were servants of Sauron. So which servants of Sauron were more effective than the Nazgûl?

And quite possibly, in the hosts of the Last Alliance, there might have been opponents who would have been able to destroy the Nazgûl, for which reason only Sauron himself coming into battle had any hope for his side.

[Edited on 03/12/2018 by Gandolorin]
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GreenhillFox
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on: March 11, 2018 10:28
That the Nazgûl’s force was based on fear rather than on military prowess was also confirmed in JRRT’s letter 210:

They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness.

On the events of Weathertop, I came across an interesting quote from JRRT in LOTR Reader's Companion:

"...the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.
Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

So, not only was the Witch-King smaller than the fear induced made him look like, he was also driven by doubt and fear himself.
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tarcolan
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on: March 12, 2018 06:06
Well found,GF. Like I said, a bunch of wimps. Scared of fire, not keen on water either. But at least we know that the enchanted sword that Merry used probably did kill the Witch King.
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Gandolorin
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on: March 12, 2018 08:56
At least this time I remembered where I had posted something on the topic – in a PM exchange with Lord_Sauron! Same as with the other topic “Gil-galad, son of Fingon or son of Orodreth?”

As for Merry and Éowyn finally doing in the WK, one could argue (speculate) that Merry’s special sword from the Barrow Downs (he stabbed the WK in the back of the knee) broke the spell that protected the WK from usual injury – broke the WK’s concentration, for certain – so that Éowyn was able to kill the WK with a normal weapon.

A little addition from Appendix A of LoTR, which I have now almost finished: of Boromir the Ruling Steward (son of Denethor I, well, well, well) it says “… and even the WK feared him.” If the WK feared a “mere” Ruling Steward, how terrified must he have been of Aragorn, heir in unbroken descent from Isildur and Elendil? Image Image
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Elthir
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on: March 12, 2018 11:18
I don't think the quote above means Merry's blade killed the Nazgul-lord. Also, in yet another external description, this time in a letter, Tolkien explains (in reaction to a proposed film script) that Sam did not sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh...

"(If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed)"

JRRT, letter 210


And I don't think one needed a special weapon to "kill" a wraith (despite Gandalf's earlier comment about arrows, which I think refers to a more "ultimate death" there). Special circumstances maybe, including the necessary state of mind to even stand up to a Wraith!

With one blow the Nazgul-lord shivered Eowyn's shield in many pieces, and broke her arm.

She stumbles to her knees. Merry strikes -- up goes a cry of pain (compare to the second cry)

Merry calls Eowyn's name, twice -- "then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword..." -- another cry goes up, but this one faded and is described as "a voice bodiless and thin that died"

Eowyn delivered the killing blow in my opinion, but not notably swiftly it seems to me (tottering, struggling up), and yet the Nazgul-lord does nothing to parry or avoid the blow.

'Cause (I would say) Merry's strike broke the spell that knit the Wraith's sinews to its will. And if "you" can't will your body (sinews) to do anything, you might fall down (letter 210), or you can't defend yourself against a deadly strike.

That's my interpretation anyway

[Edited on 03/13/2018 by Elthir]
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