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chatchickamy
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Post Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 28, 2003 07:08
I love Tolkien's writing, but the enigma of his stories seems to be Tom Bombadil. Does anyone know exactly who he is? The only clues Tolkien gives are that Tom Bombadil just is, and he was there when the first drop of water fell. But Treebeard was supposed to be the first living creature in Middle Earth. It draws me to the conclusion that Tom Bombadil is some sort of earth God dwelling in a small isolated section of Middle Earth. Any thoughts?
rhia
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 28, 2003 02:43
This is a huge debate as I don't think that Tolkein ever clearly states what Tom Bombadil is exactly. But I read in an Encyclopedia of Middle Earth and I beileve that Tom Bombadil is a maia. If you haven't read the Silmarillion a maia is almost like a god, there a race bellow the gods in power but have been around almost as long as them. Other maiar you know are the Istari or wizards Gandalf, Sauruman, Radagast and the two blue wizards. Sauron is also a maia.

That's what I think but I have no Tolkein proof to back it up.
sepdet
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 28, 2003 07:04
"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
~The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954


Tom Bombadil is perhaps the greatest unsolved mystery of LOTR. Every Tolkien community in the world has a thread debating this, and there is no definitive answer.

To me, Tom is a holdover from Tolkien's earliest stages of writing, where Elves were whimsical fairies and gnomes, and there were nature spirits closer to dryads and naiads (indeed, that's what Goldberry is) than the Valar and Maiar of Tolkien's more mature writing. Tolkien never "updated" Bombadil to fit the more mature, complex version of Middle-Earth that came out of his writing LOTR.

As usual, I go to Michael Martinez, who has a good article exploring Bombadil and the ents:

Bombadil is often described as a free spirit. In fact, before writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien referred to Bombadil as "the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside". Bombadil existed before The Lord of the Rings, having been introduced to an unsuspecting world through a poem published in Oxford Magazine. He originated as a doll owned by one of the Tolkien children, and Bombadil's adventures were merely one collection in a series of collections of adventures Tolkien made up for his children. So Bombadil's pre-LoTR existence is very different from his LoTR existence. He is much less sophisticated and far-ranging, a bit more volatile. He is a classic adventurous young man, running around without a care in the world.


Also check Michael's article above for excerpts from "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" which again show that Tolkien was bound and determined to leave Tom as he was, and not worry about what that was.

"He is," says Goldberry. That's the only real answer we can give.

But of course, we all really know that Tom Bombadil is the Witch-King of Angmar.
AEvenstar
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 29, 2003 01:01
Ok I've got a theory on Tom Bombadil so just listen.
As the Ring does not effect him that signifies to me that he must be of equal or greater power than the Ring, and therefore Sauron. Sauron is a maiar and this power is second only to the Valar, and as it is highly unlikely that one of the Valar is living in Middle-Earth it seems obvious to me that Tom Bombadil is a good maiar.
This, of course, brings up the question of Goldberry. She was found by Tom by Withywindle. Indeed he calls her "the River-daughter". The link with water somehow leads me to think that she is also a maiar of the line of Osse and Uinen.
Right there's my theory tell me what you think.
Shadowfax226
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 03, 2003 09:01
I know exactly what Tom Bombadil is or at least what his insparation was.

At first he was one of his children's doll whose name they made up. Then Tolkien made up bed time stories about him for him kids. These were the first stories that Tolkien made up so in reality he is the oldest. Goldberry was his youngest daughter's doll so he added her to all of his stories.:love:

I forget where I found that info it might have been in a Tolkien biography of autobiograhy or something that I read about him but I hope that answers your question.

The ent thing I don't know about but I think that the Entwives live in the forest next to Brandywine. ( I think that it is called the OLd Forest if I am not mistaken.) I think that because in the book they make mention of a long time ago the trees came alive and attacked Brandywine and that is why they have the wall of branches and bushes etc. so that it wouldn't happen again.

Just a thought.

Shadowfax226:blush:

P.S

I like the Beren story too!!!!
McDLT
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 04, 2003 05:19
Well we must also remember that Tom was in the world before anything else was, before the Dark Lord - so he couldn't be valar, maiar, or Beren.

It has been suggested that he was

- a Nature/Earth spirit,
- Tolkien, himself, or
- (and I personally like this theory) you, the Reader.

Just some interesting thoughts.
Shadowfax226
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 05, 2003 02:28
I like the theory that his is like a nature spirit thing or the reader. Too bad though that it doesn't give the answer somewhere in the book. But I like the one that tolkien is Tom too. Maybe Tolkien didnt want anyone to know.:dizzy:

thanks, I love it too!
chatchickamy
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 05, 2003 03:24
Hey, thanks for all the replies. From all that I've gathered I guess Tom Bombadil should remain a mystery to me. I guess its more fun that way.

I'm still disappointed he was left out of the movie, but I guess that is a good thing becuse he would just confuse people. Even more the people who haven't read the books.
Corintur_Linyacelu
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 18, 2003 04:37
Hm, I think that, as was said twice before now in this thread, Tom is simply a character invented by Tolkien before (or not involved) the LotR and Silmarillion and not actually "updated" to the mythology in which he exists and thus it is impossible to say of what "kind" he is, because he simply does not fit in.

Anyway, speculating does make some fun, so my best guess is that he is some kind of "earth spirit" created by Eru or Yavanna while Arda was forged. If there wasn't the thing about him being there even before the Valar were I'd say he is some Maia of Yavanna and Goldy a Maia of Ulmo.
But if they were there before the Ainur descended to Arda they must have been made with Arda itself by Eru himself.

Btw: Tolkien is definitely Bilbo or some other Hobbit, not Tom And of course he is Beren, too.

PS: Treebeard isnt the oldest thing on Middle-Earth, Galadriel is older. The Ents were created by Yavanna in the first days, but the slept under the stars until the sun arose, but the Elves awoke when the stars could be seen at the sky.
And Galadriel was one of them (or at least daughter of the son of one of the first)
The Ents existed but didn't live... so its your decision how you define "being old"

[Edited on 18/5/2003 by Corintur_Linyacelu]
Walkers_Shade
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 22, 2003 09:18
A thing I want to know is what is the relationship between Tom and Goldberry? Are they husband and wife or does Goldberry just live with Tom and is like his maid? You hear about Tom being the eldest and all but it never says what Goldberyy is.
Naurlas
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 22, 2003 11:10
I found this quote in a book i picked up by "David Day" called - "A Tolkien Bestiary" which gives great descriptions of all the races, creatures of ME. His description of Tom and Gold-berry is as follows: In the tales of ME, is he whom the Grey-elves named Iarwain Ben-adar which means both "old" and "without father" ( a reference to Tolkien himself maybe? my opinion..), By dwarves he was named Forn, by men Orald and by Hobbits he was called Tom Bombadil. Always singing or speaking in rhymes, he seemed a nonsensical and eccentric being, yet he was absolute master of the Old Forest of Eriador where he lived and no evil within the World was strong enough to touch him within his realm.

Other spirits, who may have been servants of the Vala Ulmo, also lives within the Old Forest. One of these was the River-woman of the Withywindle and another was her [/u]daughter Goldberry[u] who was Bombadil's spouse.

Hope this helps, i also think that Tom = Tolkien although most say that Gandalf was modeled after the author. i guess, in the end...we will never really know and it's left up to your own interpretation and imagination.

[i][/i]This is a great book, if you ever run across it, i recommend you pick it up!
Naurlas
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 29, 2003 11:15
In the books Tolkien's writes that Tom "just is" and of the earth itself, maybe he was set in ME by Yavanna, since she was the one who sung all the creatures, gardens, forests into existance...something set apart from both Maia, elves, men and hobbits.

Personally, i still think Tom represents Tolkien....but who knows???
Tiruvantel
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: July 01, 2003 10:19
My personal favorite is this one, comparing Bombadil to Aulë and Goldberry to Yavanna:

http://www.lordotrings.com/books/bombadil.asp
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: July 02, 2003 01:42
The reference to Tom's constant singing really does give credence to the possibility that Tom is Valar. I hadn't really thought much about why Tom sings as though it is part of the very fabric of his being.
Cherie
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: July 03, 2003 10:39
Tolkien had explained already that Bombadil is in fact not a Valar, and had generally just called him 'he just is'
I think Tom might be exactly what Tolkien had described him as; just is. He's not human, not an elf, a hobbit nor any other living thing. He's just an inhabitant of Middle Earth, and is a oftenly peaceful and merry fellow, for he doesn't take part in teh War of The Ring, nor does he choose sides.
Tiruvantel
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: July 17, 2003 04:11
I'd love to have gotten a Bombadil story, too. I haven't read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil (I think that's the name) yet, because I haven't been able to find it...have you? He would have done well in a book like The Hobbit...he's a character that would be easily loved by children, but is interesting for adults, too. Ah, we can dream, lol.

He did seem a BIT misplaced in LOTR, but the Tom Bombadil/Barrow-wights passages were some of my favorites in the entire book. The way I see it, it was just one of the trials the hobbits would need to endure in preparation for what was coming up in their journey. They had never been outside the Shire, and they needed to be a little "hardened" before things really got bad...Tolkien did a nice job of acclimating them to hardships, I think.
McDLT
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 05, 2003 12:41
Here are some interesting facts that of course add more mystery to Tom.

The first Vala to enter ME was Melkor/Morgorth. So that leaves out Vala. Tom was in ME before the Dark Lord came from the Outside.

Tom is not likely to be Maia. The Maia mentioned in LotR that are in Middle-earth are affected/effected by the Ring. (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron)

Tom is not Illuvtar/Eru/God:
"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956

Tolkien said this about Tom:

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954
rhînolwen
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 09, 2003 07:53
I love Tom! He's a wonderful twist on the story, and he has an absolutely marvelous and profoundly interesting character, without having to have any outstanding beauty, valiance or lordship. In fact, he's quite ordinary; and at the same time, a complete mystery!

But what is Tom? Even if we'll never really know what for sure, he must be something. Here are my speculations (actually, they would better be called "thoughts"; I don't base very much of it on hard evidence.)

Tom is not likely to be Maia. The Maia mentioned in LotR that are in Middle-earth are affected/effected by the Ring. (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron) - McDLT


Even though this dissimilarity is true, I still think Tom is a Maia or something very much like one; perhaps one of the Ainur that decided to go into middle earth by his own decision, and never really pledged his allegiance to any of the Valar, become a rogue wanderer of the forest. Or perhaps he was originally in the service of a Vala, but was either banished for some reason or decided to leave on his own accord some time very early in the history of Arda, so that he was for the most part forgotten by them. *Also, Tom did not disappear when he put the ring on his finger... but neither did Sauron. This is because both Tom and Sauron are immortal, and this power of the ring applies only to mortals.

Another idea is that Tom is perhaps an early creation of the Valar; an earthly embodiment of their power? Improbable, but just a thought.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 24, 2003 04:31
Tom a maia? - Then the ring would have an influence on him. Sauron and Gandalf are both Maia and the ring affects them but it has no effect on Tom.
BTW good to see your return Whittyb
Ainulindale
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 25, 2003 01:29

Well Remember Gandalf was once isitari and at that stage it had an affect but afterwoods did it? and it affects Sauron?


To say it has an effect on Sauron would be odd, since it's actually part of him.
Everyone was affected by the ring, even Frodo in the end, so it's really hard to comprehend why Tom didn't. The ring always had an effect on Gandalf, which I'm sure would be stronger after he became G. the White.

I once thought that Bombadil was a Valar, but somehow his 'job description' didn't fit into the normal ways of the Valar. They were rather to menial in comparison with, say, Manwe's or Mandos'. And it's hard to say whether he's a Maiar either. Somehow the way Gandalf spoke about Bombadil to Elrond gave me the idea that he doesn't consider Bombadil the same kind that he is- and apparently Elrond himself had little knowledge of him.

The theory of Tom and Goldberry being Aule and Yavanna is possible, yet I doubt it- it is not in the nature of the two of them to confine their concerns to the forests in a particular area, and block themselves from the bad going-ons around them. The were happy and contented in the Old Forest, caring little about the business of the ring and the destruction of the world around them. But there are curiously interesting similarities between the two pairs which makes you wonder.

I agree with falather- Tom Bombadil 'just is'. And he may not fit in to the story, but he certainly adds seasoning.

Actually I think Tolkien was trying to tease us.
Or probably he had no idea himself.
Aradol_I_Galen
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 01, 2003 05:13
Just as it is stated in Tolkien's letters, 'some enigma's.....'

He is the master, so he is allowed this, almost like Aule creating the dwarves with out the consent of Iluvatar. he wanted to toss in some part of himself, something/someone to appreciate to the beautiful realm that they each created.

I name it 'Tolkien's Paradox'.

I haven't yet read The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' But its possible that Tolkien could've tossed him in LoTR just to see if he could throw a curve ball to the public.
Morgul_Draug
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 10, 2003 01:00
Varyin Macil. I was under the impression that Tom was sort of a lesser/greater god. Let me explain. The simuralian explains that the 13 gods (and melchorn) infused themselves into the earth, each taking forms of their own. Their powers are not dominent in this form, and they must take a humanoid form to use them. Morgoth has now power to do this while the others do. This leads me to believe (do to the law of conservation of mass; ) that the energies that the gods have do not just dissepate, but indeed go to a god that is in his true form. Since there are none, they have to look to the emortals. Besides the elves, I know of only two. Sauron, and Tom Bombadil. If they were not there, then they would look to the next rank of lesser gods (Gandalf, Balr:evil:gs etc)
Neneithel
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 12, 2003 01:22
Living in the Oxfordshire countryside, I thinkTolkien's own explanation seems the right one.

In the book, I think Tom represents all that Tolkien loved. He is the representative of the land itself, neither Vala nor Maia, to use the terms of druidry, a spirit of place. Even (perhaps especially) Maiar could be corrupted by the Ring. Tom could not.

That's a druidic point of view for you, anyway.

Neneithel
ElainorGamgee
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 12, 2003 06:10
Hello everyone,
I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation.

I have always loved Tom just because he was not understandable. How interesting could a story be if all of it could be entirely figured out? Doesn't lend itself to almost seeming real because it is not easily explainable?

I have thought about what Tom is for quite some time now. I think that I reject him being Eru or one of the Valar because he has no care when it comes to the goings on of Middle Earth, yet it does not seem that he does wrong in not caring. Never is there a disparaging word against him when Gandalf and Elrond speak of him.

And I think that this is the same for a Maia. If Gandalf were to turn his back on the world and hide away, he would be doing wrong, yet this is all that Tom does, yet we never think of his actions as wrong.

Next there is the issue of his being called the First. Because the Ents are usually called the first, I think that Tom must be a special case such as the spirit of the earth. This would put him on earth before the Valar came down as well. And this would be understandable when it comes to Gandalf saying that if all of the all good people of Middle Earth fell, that Tom would fall as well. Gandalf also says that Tom is strong as the earth itself is strong.

And about Goldberry. Is it possible that she is the spirit of water? The spirit of earth was sure to come first and then the water.

One question. I like the idea that he is Beren, yet the hair color is all wrong when it comes to Goldberry.

Sorry that it is a bit disjointed
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 14, 2003 11:51
This is a brilliant essay on Bombadil by Steuard Jensen:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Bombadil.html

I don't think he can be a Vala as it's made clear that he's not as strong as Sauron when Legolas was talking in the Council of Elrond - "...soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power toward it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."

A Maia? I'm not sure. I can't see Iluvatur creating the Maia before the Valar, even though we know nothing of that period or process. I personally would have thought that Melkor, Manwe or Ulmo would be incarnated first as they were the most powerful of the Valar.

A nature spirit? I think so. I see him as a guardian of the "olden days", the countryside idyll before the ruination of areas of ME by Sauron and his armies. He's the guardian of Tolkien's idea of perfection - pure unspoilt countryside.

Tolkien also corroborated this in 1937, in Letter #19 - "Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?" However, this letter can't be considered trustworthy: Bombadil may have changed a great deal when he was assimilated into the myth cycle.

Anyway, those are my thoughts!

Becky
juhsstin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 17, 2003 05:12
something i'm especially curious about is: about what did gandalf talk with bombadil? at the end of "Homeward Bound", Gandalf says:

"...I am going to have a long a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another."

what did they talk about??? when gandalf says "in all my time", is he in fact saying that he has never before talked with him? I assume that the rolling stone imagery pertains to the end of gandalf's travelling days as well as tom b's stationary nature. perhaps this has some meaning?
:dizzy:
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: October 03, 2003 10:33
Well he's not a mortal since he was there when Middle Earth was created, he can't be Maia since the ring was created by one and yet its power had now affect on him, he's obviously not an Elf, and he's not Eru either, so that only leaves the Vala. If he's a Vala perhapes the reason why he would not get involved in what was going on maybe that perhapes he wasn't allowed to get involved since that was the reason why they sent the Istari in the first place. To keep Sauron from taking over Middle Earth and yet not have to directly get involved in the wars of Middle Earth themselves.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: October 04, 2003 07:33
Remember that Eru existed a long time before he created the Ainur - so there was plenty of time for him to create Tom and send him off on his own course...... just a thought
LordTemujin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: October 17, 2003 06:16
I've never bought the Eru explanation since s/he did, on occasion, make an appearance and destroy islands and such. I don't agree with Tom being either Vala nor Maia as it makes no real sense (if you trust literally what Tom says).

That leaves us with him either being pure enigma and, therefore, NO explantion possible or as something else we know nothing of.

"There are older and fouler things... in the deep places..."

JRRT didn't cover EVERY historical line. We know nothing about the Avari, for example, and we know very little about Orcs (could be from men or elves or something else). So, obvioiusly, there are many things in ME he just didn't go into.

So, this leaves Tom as being a left over of the whole process of creation (which I like) or as just another odd creature older than Ents but not as wise. Fun to discuss anyway....
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: October 20, 2003 01:47
I agree, I don't think either of them are Valar, or Maiar. I think Tom, at least, is much more powerful than the Maiar.

But being just ever so slightly pedantic, I think that there was a time when Tolkien decided that the Maiar could reproduce - before changing his mind later and saying that they couldn't (well, unless there were exceptional circumstances, e.g. Melian).

So if Goldberry was conceived in Tolkien's imagination while he thought that the Maiar could have children, it is conceivable (though highly improbably!!) that the River-Woman could be a Maiar, as could Goldberry (presuming that children of Maiar are also Maiar!).
LordTemujin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: October 20, 2003 03:51
I just don't get why EVERYONE insists on lumping Tom and Goldberry into known, existing catagories. Why oh why can't they be something other than Maia, Vala, or Eru that Professor T just didn't go in to? He didn't really describe where Ents came from, he just catagorized them, for example. JRRT had a rich imagination (to say the very least) and to NOT think that he had many, many ideas and creatures he just didn't write much about is ludicrous, imvho. Also, in his letter, he states that Tom in an enigma which definitely precludes him from being any known entity and puts him into the realm of 'meta-Objects' (ie: Other objects not yet discussed).

Nevertheless, I don't see how the Hobbits met up with him in the movie (they got their swords from Strider not Tom) despite the DVD-EE narration that they 'might' have still met him,but it just isn't in the film.....
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: November 20, 2003 03:55
This point has been brought up many times, but if he were a Maiar he would be affected by the ring- same as Saruman, Gandalf, Sauron, and more than any other race in ME

not necisarily. If he were more powerful than Sauron wouldn't he not be tempted by something that had less power than he already had? Some might argue that he would galn more power but I don't think the ring worked that way. It seems to me that the ring could give the bearer the power that it had but not increase what the bearer already had. So if Tom already had the power that the ring could give him why would he need the ring?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: November 20, 2003 05:34
If he were more powerful than Sauron wouldn't he not be tempted by something that had less power than he already had?


But Tollkien states in the Silmarillion that Sauron was probably the strongest of the Maiar. I know that only says probably, but Tolkien does list the most powerful of the Maiar in the Blessed Realm, and in Middle Earth. And Tom's not there........


Some might argue that he would galn more power but I don't think the ring worked that way. It seems to me that the ring could give the bearer the power that it had but not increase what the bearer already had.


Not according to Tolkien:

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing) the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance ... But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor" (Letters #131)
Mithrellas
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: November 24, 2003 06:38
Does anyone else think that maybe the mysterious "River Woman", the mother of Goldberry, is Uinen? This would mean that Goldberry is the daughter of Osse and Uinen. That would explain how Goldberry is a sort of "river-spirit." It seems to make sense.
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 02, 2003 09:32
I think i remember hearing somewhere in the books that ol' Tom was the oldest thing on middle earth, yet Treebeard claims to be the oldest living thing to have lived on middle earth. My oppinion is that Bombadillio is a Maiar. To me it makes sense that he would be, seeing as the Maiar were in middle earth (but not on middle earth) before the ents, and came into existance before the ents. And thus Treebeard might have been on middle earth the longest in physical form, but Tommy was in middle earth (or perhaps even in Valinor) for ages prior.

I see Tom as a gnome-like figure... possibly related to hobbits in a way. Whatever he is, it is safe to say that the light of Iluvatar still shines bright within him.

Cam.
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