Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Lord of the Rings » 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
Author Topic:
Trignifty
Ruler and Court Jester of Planet Awesome
Posts: 470
Send Message
Avatar
Post 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 20, 2003 03:15
Sorry this is a tad late everyone. I wanted to give 'a week off' after finishing the first book, but I got swamped and forgot to give you all discussion points. Am Bad. I know. I Sowwy.

~~~~~~

- The elven stone that Aragorn finds, what does it mean?
- Does Glorfindel represent anything to you?
- How do you feel about him vs. his replacement, Arwen? (Incidentally, I'd like *reasons* why Arwen does or does not work, not simply 'cuz I don't like her!' or 'she wasn't SUPPOSED to be there and is therefore crap!' anything else will be removed )
- Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Cooould this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?
- The water! Symbolism or no? What about the shapes the water takes?

And...uhm..WHOOHOO, done with book one! On to bigger and better things...such as...Book two!


[Edited on 28/1/2004 by Figwit]
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 24, 2003 03:20
There was a purpose for sticking Arwen in place of Glorfindel in the movie- - cuts the number of players and gives Liv a bigger Role which is necessary for the film and its love interest byplay.
But I do not think it would have worked as well in the book.
Arwen is very young as elves go and just doesn't yet have the wisdom, nobility or inner strength of an Elf-Lord like Glorfindel. She would not yet have acquired his ability to stand up to the Nazgul.
Periantari
Council Member
Posts: 18
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 25, 2003 04:39

why Arwen does or does not work, not simply 'cuz I don't like her!' or 'she wasn't SUPPOSED to be there and is therefore crap!' anything else will be removed ) Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Cooould this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?

And...uhm..WHOOHOO, done with book one! On to bigger and better things...such as...Book two!


Arwen...i definitely did NOT like her extended role in the movies although i understand why PJ decided to use her presence to explain to the non-bookies how and why Aragorn marries her...she did not work because of her extended role; Glorfindel in contrast came and led the hobbits and Aragorn, but Arwen just totally took over i mean i understand, for pacing reasons why it was done, but i just thought that out of all the Elves in Rivendell, she did not work because she's not an Elf-lord and she's Elrond's daughter, and surely he wont' allow for her to go into danger looking for Aragorn and the hobbits.
i sorely missed Frodo's bravery in standing up to the Ring-wraiths from the book...
but in regards to your question, i definitely think that this chapter shows Frodo's inner strength and resilience to deal with pain, physical and emotional, bearing a splinter for more than two weeks... I love his last stand with the Ring-wraiths ( i have that picture of the Bruinen Ford by Ted Nasmith) on my desktop
but yes, this scene at the Bruinen Ford shows Frodo's strength and courage to deal with danger head-on and his quote, which is quoted on my siggy, is classic and i reread this chapter over and over because of the end, which i think is a perfect way to close out Book 1. Yay Frodo! :love:

[Edited on 7//26/0303 by Periantari]
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 26, 2003 04:49
Am Bad. I know. I Sowwy.


you're forgiven

Does Glorfindel represent anything to you? How do you feel about him vs. his replacement, Arwen?


Glory was just soooooo much better

Well, since you asked, I prefer Arwen. I had to get used to it at first, much like everyone else, but I think - all things considered - the scene does her and Tolkien justice.

In the book, there's Glorfindel the Eloquent Elf Lord with the bells on his frock, who puts Frodo on his horse and shouts Run Asfaloth Run, after which he lights a torch and attempts at ballet.
I'm sorry, I'm just not a Glorfindel lover, and I believe his importance in LOTR is just sorely overestimated.

Why shouldn't it work to have Arwen? Agreed, she *seems* more passive in the books. But is she really? She is the one who decides on her relationship with Aragorn, she is the one who moves from Lórien to Rivendell, she is the one who - like Lúthien - gives up her immortal life to stay with her ranger. She faces her father (who doesn't really agree) and her husband (who in the end doesn't really agree) and sticks with her choice.
She's strong, independent and wise.

She might be young, but so is our dear Legolas and bookwise he proves himself worthy of his task. She might be Elrond's daughter, but that doesn't mean he can or will lock her up in her room. She's only a pretty Elf, but Glorfindel would have been just another blonde Elf anyway, so what are we missing? The bells? The frock? The waving of firelight? I don't think so.

Of course this is a subjective discussion, but in terms of why it did work - and not thinking about practicals - I would like to point out that perhaps Arwen being the one saving Frodo is simply more *right* because *spoiler alert* of something that happens later in the book and has to do with ships and tickets *stand down spoiler alert*. If you catch my drift



Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Could this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?


It's nothing new to me (but then, I don't hate Frodo). I think he just does what he does best: desperation is making him braver than he really is. And I do love that moment in the book.


The water! Symbolism or no? What about the shapes the water takes?


I don't think so. A river is always a natural border of some kind, and it seems only natural that Tolkien would think of a river to mark the boundaries of Elrond's territoty.

And...uhm..WHOOHOO, done with book one! On to bigger and better things...such as...Book two!


JIPPIE
Trignifty
Ruler and Court Jester of Planet Awesome
Posts: 470
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 26, 2003 10:25
you're forgiven


Thaaaanks

hm, just to bring a little humor to the table, I'll share this story with ye:

about 6 months ago I was reading FotR and I decided to skip to the flight to the ford chapter. Something completely strange happened...when I read the part about the Nazgul stepping into the river, an earthquake happened. Right then. I mean...what timing!

I have to agree with Figgy about Arwen though. I don't see why she doesn't work. He's not a central character to the book and you never even see him again after that. Figgy makes an excellent point in stating that Legolas is also considered very young and yet he is deemed strong enough, smart enough, blahblahblah to go on this journey. I think the film added so much depth to Arwen. What depth could it have added to Glorfindel? And who's to say that Arwen wasn't out looking for the Hobbits and Aragorn in the book? Surely they sent out more than one elf to look for them...

Water as a symbol...archetypically, water can mean life. Granted it can also mean death, but lets examine the life angle The Riders...to the Hobbits represent death because should any of the Nazgul get their hands on our 3 foot pals, it would be instant death. That applies to anyone, really...But the water saves Frodo. Life overcoming death. I mean...it's just one take on it, but I suppose it's a possibility
ArwenLegolas
Realm Leader of Manwë Súlimo & CoE Volunteer
Posts: 113
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 26, 2003 08:21
...I sowwy,
I think having Arwen in the movie instead of Glorfindel gives the movie more depth, and who doesn't like a love scene like the one on the bridge? A movie with a love story in it will draw more people to come and watch it. It also gives it a human interest angle. Water in the Scriptures points to nations, peoples and kindreds. Which could be indicative that Arwen might be the mother of a nation>queen. I also like the changing of the shape of the Bruinen. As I understand it, the river was only released in its full strength in dire emergencies, and I think Gandalf did a great job with the Horse-waves, crested-helmed riders no less. Awesome. I have to agree with the comments figgie and trignifty made. Glorfindel did not have the underlying potential Arwen had. I can see a gloriously awesome scene with Glorfindle, growing to a towering height like Gandalf does at Bilbo's and scaring the living daylights out everybody (including the Hobbits) But then it would be anticlimactic. Arwen is a good choice.
The elfstone to me would indicate a prophecy being fulfilled that an heir of Isildur will inherit the throne again. I see it like something of a spiritual awakening on Aragon's part. Sort of having an awareness that something tremendous is going to happen, like it is already in the making. The promise of Kingship



[Edited on 27/7/2003 by ArwenLegolas]
Tiro nin Elbereth
McDLT
Council Member
Posts: 20
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: July 28, 2003 04:44
The elven stone that Aragorn finds, what does it mean?

It means that someone is looking for them.

Does Glorfindel represent anything to you?

Glorfindel is that bit of Elven history that Tolkien loved.

How do you feel about him vs. his replacement, Arwen?

Arwen was put in this spot because of PJ's need to use more of Liv Tyler and add more depth to Arwen because of the shortness of the movie.

I did not like it though. Glorfindel, as I stated above, adds history. Glorfindel also is an elf that has been to Valnor. He has the ability to frighten the Black Riders because he can see them and they can see him in the "spiritual" realm.

Glorfindel, much like Gildor, gives a more rounded view of elves and Middle-earth history.

Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Cooould this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?

I think at this point in the story, it is just Frodo reacting. He feels fearful and goes into survival mode and does what he can to protect himself. Most people would react this way.

Just some of my thoughts.
_LadyEowyn_
Council Member
Posts: 109
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: January 06, 2005 09:46
- Does Glorfindel represent anything to you?

Frodo feels hope when he looks at Glorfindel

- How do you feel about him vs. his replacement, Arwen?

Glorfindel would have been better because when Arwen takes him, she takes all the "Limelight" so to speak. Frodo doesn't get to do his little bit of courage which is dissapointing, but I think PJ thought that because there wouldn't be much point in putting in Glorfindel and then immediately taking him out again, when he could introduce Arwen. Which is perfectly true.

- Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Cooould this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?

I love the little speech he does! Just showing some hidden courage of Frodo.



[Edited on 7/1/2005 by _LadyEowyn_]
ArwenLegolas
Realm Leader of Manwë Súlimo & CoE Volunteer
Posts: 113
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: January 07, 2005 06:49
Lady Eowyn, I heard that originally PJ wanted to go with Glorfindel, but Liv was upset because she wanted to have a big part. Somebody said that she gave them a choice to either get a bigger part or for them to look for somebody else. But I think it is a pity that it happened because I would have loved to see Glorfindel when he showed his Elvish Beauty. I hope that maybe some of those things will be discussed in another forum maybe the book Forum
Tiro nin Elbereth
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: January 08, 2005 12:46
Lady Eowyn, I heard that originally PJ wanted to go with Glorfindel, but Liv was upset because she wanted to have a big part. Somebody said that she gave them a choice to either get a bigger part or for them to look for somebody else. But I think it is a pity that it happened because I would have loved to see Glorfindel when he showed his Elvish Beauty. I hope that maybe some of those things will be discussed in another forum maybe the book Forum


Well, there's plenty of threads about this in the Movie Forum - but I'd like to add that I seriously doubt this. Liv Tyler has said on many occasions that she thought Arwen's part had altered too much, and she herself is the one who brought the original XenArwen from Helm's Deep closer to the books.

Besides, I don't think Liv is a) so stupid to risk a part by putting someone under pressure like that, and b) irreplacable. Nathalie Portman could have played Arwen, as could plenty of other beautiful women (Jennifer Connelly was mentioned on more than one occasion).
This story sounds like original Liv-bashing.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 749
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 1.XII. Flight to the Ford
on: January 09, 2005 09:18
The elven stone that Aragorn finds, what does it mean?

There's not a chance of me fully answering that without spoilers, but, at this point, it's a pretty little moment in the book. It's a little ray of hope.

Does Glorfindel represent anything to you?

Not really. I like him, but I never felt that he strictly *represented* anything bigger, like love or something.

How do you feel about him vs. his replacement, Arwen?

I didn't really like that Frodo didn't stand up to the Ringwraiths. Arwen worked in the movies; Glorfindel worked in the books. I completely forgot what I was going to write about Glorfindel, so it'll just have to suffice to say that I like him better

Frodo's Stand to the Nazgul! Cooould this possibly be a showing of change in our little Hobbit hero's character or confidence or both?

No, I don't think so. I think he always had it in him, even though he didn't show any extraordinary courage until the Barrow-downs. That was very similar in that, against all odds, he managed to stick up for himself and not just go back to sleep.

The water! Symbolism or no? What about the shapes the water takes?

I don't think there's much symbolism in the water. It's interesting that the Nazgûl are so afraid of it, and that it's the only thing we've seen work against them so far. I also liked that the pretty Bruinen-flood-horses destroyed the nasty real horses.
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email