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Scothia
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Post Two Glorfindels?
on: August 18, 2002 05:44
Can someone please explain why there are two Glorfindels? One fell at the Fall of Gondolin, battling a Balrog, or so says the Silmarillion. Another shows up at the Ford of Bruinen, as we all know (unless we've only seen the movie.) No explanation is given that we can find. Is this actually the same Glorfindel, and our beloved JRRT made a mistake? Or were there two Glorfindels?

[Edited on 30/6/2011 by cirdaneth]
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: August 18, 2002 08:12
No, the theory is that the Glorfindel who fell in battle with the Balrog is the very same Glorfindel who became Elrond's advisor. Some say Mandos released him with the proviso that he serve Elrond and his line. This I gleaned from numerous sources who extrapolated it (and I believe perhaps some of JRRT's letters) that Elves who died and went to Mandos' halls could return at a time in the future for certain purposes.

Okay, Aule... Am I off on this? There are many areas of conflicts and ambiguities in JRRT's works, partly because the works spanned over 40 years in his life with many revisions.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: August 22, 2002 06:01
if its all the same Glorfindel- then why did only he come back? What about Gil-Galad and other heroes? Once they left did they stop caring about Middle Earth ? Hmmm! :dizzy: :dizzy:
Aule
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: August 24, 2002 04:11
(PotbellyHairyfoot)

if it's all the same Glorfindel - then why did only he come back? What about Gil-galad and other heroes? Once they left did they stop caring about Middle Earth ? Hmmm!
(Scothia)

Where did you find this reference to Tolkien? I'd be most interested in reading it.
The Return of the Shadow (HoME VI)
XII - At Rivendell

[...] Also very notable is [a note JRRT made while composing The Council of Elrond] 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.' Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: '[The use of Glorfindel] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings.' He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II.192 - 4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age. [...]
The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME XII)
XIII - Last Writings
Of Glorfindel, Círdan and Other Matters
Glorfindel

[...] When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One [Ilúvatar] be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release. Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die within the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm. Their death - by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed - and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there. We can therefore reasonably suppose that Glorfindel, after the purging or forgiveness of his part in the rebellion of the Noldor, was released from Mandos and became himself again, but remained in the Blessed Realm - for Gondolin was destroyed and all or most of his kin had perished.

[...]

Glorfindel remained in the Blessed Realm, no doubt at first by his own choice: Gondolin was destroyed, and all his kin had perished, and were still in the Halls of Waiting unapproachable by the living. But his long sojourn during the last years of the First Age, and at least far into the Second Age, no doubt was also in accord with the wishes and designs of Manwë.

[...]

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Númenor, and while the Númenóreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceive Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed. But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dûr was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he had fallen. [...]
EDIT - Fixed the inevitable typos, and added what follows.

It seems JRRT had Glorfindel return to Middle-earth in accordance with the desires of Manwë, much as with the Istari, to aide in the cause against Sauron. In fact, he entertained this method and date of Glorfindel's return ...
The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME XII)
XIII - Last Writings
Of Glorfindel, Círdan and Other Matters
Glorfindel

[...] An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olórin - about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel ... [...]


[Edited on 8/24/2002 by Aule]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: September 01, 2004 12:24
In The Peoples of Middle-Earth reference is made to the two appearances of Glorfindel. he leaves know doubt that the two appearances were made by the same individual
After Glorfindel fell, his spirit(fëa) returned to the Halls of Mandos to be judged. After being purged of his guilt for taking part in the rebellion of the Noldor he was restored to incarnate life, and he and dwelled for a long time in the Blessed lands. (He was made incarnate with his spiritual power greatly enhanced, because of the self-sacrifice that lead to his death, and this made him a very powerful Elf-Lord. This is what Frodo saw, while wearing the ring, when he observed Glorfindel. )
Tolkien left us with two possible time frames for his return;
It is quite possible that he was returned to middle-Earth along with the Istari, around the year 1000 of the Third Age, to aid in their mission.
It is also quite possible that he returned during the Second Age, somewhere between the years 1200 and 1600, to aid Gil-Galad and Elrond in their struggles with Sauron.
I don't know which version is better, although I do like the idea of Glorfindel accompanying Gandalf and returning to Middle-Earth with him.


(note that this is just a condensed version of what was stated above by Aule)

[Edited on 1/9/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: September 01, 2004 02:03
When was the stuff about Glorfindel written? If it was written before the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales, I think it's pretty unlikely that Glorfindel wouldn't have been mentioned in it, unless J.R.R.T. had changed his mind.
I like the idea that Glorfindel came back earlier in the Third Age or later in the Second Age - is that possible?
And here's the quote I didn't have before:
The Silmarillion, "Of Beren and Lúthien":
They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the pprinces of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroy ing seas. But Finrod walks wiht Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: September 02, 2004 11:25
The essays about the two possible return times for Glorfiindel are part of the work included in the "Last writings 'in The People's of Middle-Earth. It appears that the essay concluding the Glorfindel probably returned before the Drowning of Nûmenor is the later essay, but that still leaves me with an unanswered question; If Glorfindel was on Middle-Earth during the battle with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, wouldn't his name be included in the records of that battle? That his name isn't found in any stories about the last Alliance is why I find it more likelythat he returned in the Third Age.
Elthir
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: October 29, 2009 06:22
(...) It appears that the essay concluding the Glorfindel probably returned before the Drowning of Nûmenor is the later essay, but that still leaves me with an unanswered question; If Glorfindel was on Middle-Earth during the battle with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, wouldn't his name be included in the records of that battle? That his name isn't found in any stories about the last Alliance is why I find it more likely that he returned in the Third Age.


I like the 'companion of Gandalf' idea, but in possible response to this question... what records or stories?

I note that Glorfindel was present in TA 1975 at the defeat of the Witch-king, for example, yet he is still not noted as such in The Tale of Years specifically. IIRC there are only relatively brief mentions in Tolkien-published text to the Last Alliance, which generally included: 'so many great princes and captains' assembled (The Council Of Elrond).

Even the account in Of The Rings Of Power (not published by JRRT himself) is fairly brief. Scattered references can be found in Unfinished Tales, but with respect to Elves, for instance the focus in The Sindarin Princes Of The Silvan Elves is on Oropher, Malgalad and the Wood-elves.

Anyway, due to Glorfindel II Tolkien arguably was going to add just a bit to The Lord of the Rings, seemingly not with respect to the Last Alliance (or not necessarily anyway). To my mind Glorfindel's 'not (yet) mentioned' role in the annals recording Sauron's defeat (see the note 'between' Glorfindel I and II) appears to connect to his reason for being sent.

The idea seems to be: if Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond in this crisis (Sauron invading Eriador), then something should be made of his role in this war.

[Edited on 29/10/2009 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 26, 2010 08:29
*Bump*

I have received an encyclopedia error report from a member who may enjoy reading/discussing this thread, so I'm reactivating it. The report is from Aerena100 as follows
Though a common error is thought when both Glorgindel's are mentioned, it is thought that the latter is a reincarnation of the first, but no evidence points to such a fact. Just because two children are named Sarah in a time-span of a few hundred years doesn't mean the latter child is a reincarnation of the first. It appears the parents of Glorfindel of Rivendell wished their child to be named after an Elf who killed a Balrog - a feat few could boast of at the time - and such a name has caused confusion throughout researching fans. Though many accounts of such a thing happening have been seen over the internet, it is most likely a dreaming fan's wish that he be thought of as such. Such a thing might be easy to look over, but J.R.R. Tolkien did not in any of his writings suggest such a thing, I brought it to light so it might be properly edited.
I personally am in no doubt that there is only one Glorfindel.

[Edited on 26/12/2010 by cirdaneth]
Elthir
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 26, 2010 09:27
These days, now that the late essays (already noted in the thread) are more well known, and if nothing else comes to light, in my opinion it can hardly be disputed that Tolkien answered the question by concluding that there was one Glorfindel.

Some however (like the Encyclopedia of Arda) seem to continue to question the source, as these late essays were never published by JRRT himself -- but we only have 'two Glorfindels' once we consider text Tolkien never published, so why not also use the late essays to provide his considered answer?


The Encyclopedia of Arda raises The Problem of Ros in their Glorfindel article, but the writers don't provide any reason to think that the Glorfindel essays also contradict already published text (concerning the matter under question) -- which was the issue with Tolkien's essay on ros.

Without that their example merely raises a very general caution with respect to working with the corpus now available through Christopher Tolkien, and does not really speak to why the late Glorfindel texts should be considered arguably problematic.

I don't consider them problematic, at least with respect to Tolkien's general conclusion anyway.




[Edited on 26/12/2010 by Elthir]
Aerena100
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 26, 2010 12:58
I greatly believe the issue of the two Glorfindels possibly being the same one is rather crazy. There are two Elves named 'Glorfindel', yes, but that doesn't mean Tolkien made the second a reincarnation of the first. Just because there are two people named 'Joshua' born hundreds of years apart doesn't mean we immediately assume the second Joshua is a reincarnation of the first. The parents of Glorfindel of Rivendell most likely named him after the first or, maybe, that could have been a popular Elvish name at that time. Just because it is a book doesn't mean all characters *have* to be named differently.

(And you shouldn't believe everything you read when looking up answers to this question on the internet, most people will take the things they find a little too seriously and re-post it to make all sources match.)

[Edited on 26/12/2010 by Aerena100]
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 26, 2010 02:03
I thought the issue of two Glorfindels had been resolved by the Professor himself in The History of the People's of Middle-Earth, which is a part of the HOME. Therein he wrote that the Glorfindel of the First Age was, indeed, the same Glorfindel as found in the Lord of the Rings. He wrote that Glorfindal had been sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar circa SA 1600 when Barad-dûr was completed and Sauron had forged the One Ring.

In one version he is a predecessor to the Istari (Blue Wizards) and, in another, he came with the Istari. At one point, the Professor, briefly, considered Glorfindel as one of the Blue Wizards but, almost immediately he rejected this idea as the Wizards were Maiar and Glorfindel was not, although he displays extraordinary power in the LoTR writings, which is acknowledged by Gandalf during the Council of Elrond.

The Professor spent some considerable time during his final years confirming that there was only one Glorfindel.

The Professor made it very clear in his writings that he did NOT like to reuse names and the idea of using a name because it was "popular" is ridiculous. This is a modern convention and is not supported by canon.

Upon examination, it becomes apparent that Elves did not name their sons and daughters "after" anybody, but chose father-names that bore a relationship to their own names/family history, and mother-names that reflected the personality/characteristics of their individual children.

While it's true a few names are "recycled", they apply to the children/descendants of the Secondborn, and it is highly unlikely that the Elves would have be so taken with the names of the Secondborn to have used them for their own children.

[Edited on 27/12/2010 by Eomer_Sister]
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Elthir
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 27, 2010 03:07
Aerena100 wrote: I greatly believe the issue of the two Glorfindels possibly being the same one is rather crazy. There are two Elves named 'Glorfindel', yes, but that doesn't mean Tolkien made the second a reincarnation of the first.


That alone doesn't, I agree... but JRRT himself wrote two essays on the matter, in which he concluded that Glorfindel of Gondolin was reincarnated and was the same Elf appearing in The Lord of the Rings.

Just because it is a book doesn't mean all characters *have* to be named differently.


Again that much is true, but yet Tolkien also decided that Glorfindel was a name that should not be repeated -- while other names could be repeated, and were.

(And you shouldn't believe everything you read when looking up answers to this question on the internet, most people will take the things they find a little too seriously and re-post it to make all sources match.)


Well, before his father's essays were actually published, Christopher Tolkien himself noted the conclusion concerning them.

I would also generally advise caution when using the web, but in this case Tolkien's answer was ultimately published in The Peoples Of Middle-Earth in the 1990s -- notable parts of which Aule has already presented in this thread.



[Edited on 28/12/2010 by Elthir]
Elthir
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: December 27, 2010 03:18
Eomer_Sister wrote: 'The Professor made it very clear in his writings that he did NOT like to reuse names and the idea of using a name because it was "popular" is ridiculous. This is a modern convention and is not supported by canon.'

'Upon examination, it becomes apparent that Elves did not name their sons and daughters "after" anybody, but chose father-names that bore a relationship to their own names/family history, and mother-names that reflected the personality/characteristics of their individual children.'


However we can note, for example, that the Sindarin form Argon '... was often given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour.' JRRT, The Peoples of Middle-Earth


With respect to the repetition of names, Tolkien noted that the repetition of the name Glorfindel, though possible, would not be credible, and '... but the name [Galdor] is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated.'




[Edited on 28/12/2010 by Elthir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Two Glorfindels?
on: June 30, 2011 09:53
May I also point out that Frodo sees, at the Ford of Bruinen, through his dimming sight
"beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames"
Later he tells Gandalf
"I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?"

"Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
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