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Naira
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Post The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: October 25, 2003 02:34
Naira asked if any Rangers besides Aragorn were mentioned by name. Everyone remembered Halbarad, of course, but were stumped for any others.

Roheryn mentioned that there were around 30 others in the Grey Company that rode wit Elladan and Elrohir to the aid of Gondor.

The topic moved on to discussion of Northern Ragers in general.

Atalante Star quoted Tom Bombadil saying
Few now remember them ... yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless. Tom Bombadil … The Fellowship of the Ring I - Fog on the Barrow-downs
Arveleg came up with a fund of references
Rangers - The Dúnedain of the North after the fall of the North Kingdom, secret guardians of Eriador (Unfinished Tales, index)
…the Dúnedain of the North, ……..a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys, and save in Imladris, in the House of Elrond, their ancestry was forgotten.(Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
When the kingdom ended the Dúnedain passed into the shadows and became a secret and wandering people, and their deeds and labours were seldom sung or recorded. Little is now remembered of them since Elrond departed.... (Lord of the Rings, Appendix A)
in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree folk called them Rangers and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the language of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. (Lord of the Rings, At the Sign of the Prancing Pony)
‘I have thirty with me.’ said Halbarad ‘That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; ’(Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company).
When the Nazgul came to Sarn Ford and tried to enter the Shire:
They came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded, for the Rangers barred their way.……some fled northward … Some still dared to bar the ford and held it while the day lasted. (Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring)
Aragorn speaks of some of their ways:
There is food in the wild,’ said Strider ‘berry, root and herb; and I have some skill as a hunter at need.’ (Lord of the Rings, A Knife in the Dark)
Aragorn is described as wearing:
high boots of supple leather that fitted him well……A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark green cloth was drawn closely about him……he wore a hood that overshadowed his face;……..a shaggy head flecked with grey, and in a pale, stern face a pair of keen grey eyes. (Lord of the Rings, Strider)
And its is stated:
Strider was content with a single cloak (Lord of the Rings, A Knife in the Dark)
And when the fellowship left Rivendell:
Aragorn had Anduril, but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a Ranger in the wilderness. (Lord of the Rings, The Ring Goes South)
And more on Halbarad's company of Rangers:
A little apart the Rangers sat, silent, in an ordered company, armed with spear and bow and sword. They were clad in cloaks of dark grey, and their hoods were cast now over helm and head. Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired;…….There was no gleam of stone or gold, nor any fair thing in all their gear or harness; nor did their riders bear any badge or token, save only that each cloak was pinned upon the left shoulder by a brooch of silver shaped like a rayed star.(Lord of the Rings, The Passing of the Grey Company).
And they looked out for each other in the wild:
’Rangers have been here lately. It is they who left the firewood behind.’(Lord of the Rings, A Knife in the Dark)
We were reminded that Halbarad was slain on thePellennor Fields and Arveleg wondered if he had family.

[Edited on 29/9/2007 by cirdaneth]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 08, 2004 12:58
Is there a difference between the Dunedan/Dunedain and the Rangers? Will someone please explain?

The Dúnedain (translates to Men of the West) were the descendants of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth, people whose ancestors managed to escape the destruction of their island homeland (see here for an encyclopedia entry). They were the founders of the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. The Gondorians (at least for the most) were of the Dúnedain of the South; the Rangers and their people were the Dúnedain of the North, the remnants of the Arnorians.

So, the Rangers were Dúnedain, but not all Dúnedain were Rangers.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 09, 2004 07:15
There is a strong difference between the Rangers of the North and those of the South.

The Rangers of the Arnor were the remnants of the royal line, descendants of the family of Arvedui Last King.
They were all distant family members.

In the Southern Realm, the King, and later the Steward, appointed the Rangers from the men most trusted to nature.
They became some kind of guerilla-force, later especially used in Ithilien.

ED: HERE ENDS Naira's thread. No more was posted. Meanwhile another thread had started. I append it hereto.

[Edited on 29/9/2007 by cirdaneth]
atalante_star
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: September 29, 2007 03:24
Atalante began with the Tom Bombadil quote
Few now remember them ... yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.
A few months ago we had a thread here about sacrifice, and who made the biggest sacrifice in LotR. One group of people we forgot then, I think, were the Dúnedain.

These were the descendants of the great kings of old, now living in the wilds, working as rangers and protectors. But had their role actually changed? If you take the pomp and ceremony out of the role of the king, what is left underneath? Being protectors and guardians of the people, keeping them safe from known and unknown foes ....

Erressea said This does make one think. It is often said that the garment doesn't make the person, that the title doesn't. Well, if that is so, would the Dunedains then have been of equal greatness (of mind and deeds) if there weren't the slightest strain of blue blood in their veins?

Would they have felt the same need to sacrifice their life and joy in a pursuit of making others happy? by helping them out? If that be so, then are they not, in some way, kings by spirit.
Is it possible that a whole line of the same family can have the stroke of ideal kingly manner in their genes? Could there be black sheep sometimes amongst them?
What made them continue with the things, they had lost the responsibily to do -did they do it of joy? Did it humour them excedingly to give up their entire life for the well and comfert of others. Did they still feel that they had a responsibilty, though they had been stripped of it many years ago???

Celebrianna: The Rangers certainly did their part to protect M/E. They could have remained only in their lands and protect their own borders but instead they chose to protect other lands in the North as well. Like the Shire for instance. I really like the Dunedain. I get the impression that they were scorned by people and yet they chose to still protect these same people. I think Aragorn said that about the owner of the Prancing Pony in Bree. The Rangers never received any gratitude from these folks yet they still continued to protect them. They really seem selfless.

Earnur explained: Arnor (the North Kingdom) was actually quite *ehem* big. It covered almost all of Eriador. The Shire was actually part of Arnor, but the Hobbits were allowed to rule the Shire themselves, but they were under the protection of the King of Arnor, so when the Rangers are protecting the Shire, they're in their own land. Besides, the north Kingdom doesn't exist anymore at the time of the LOTR, so there aren't really any "borders" to protect, unless you mean the old borders of Arnor

celebrianna: Thank you for correcting my ignorance but I always thought that since the Northern Kingdom was destroyed long ago the Rangers really did not consider the Shire as their own land. (Oh, and I do look at the map of M/E too). That is besides the point though. I was merely trying to say that the Rangers were selfless individuals who continuously protected the careless and innocent in the north.

Earnur : Well, you're certainly right there! The Dunedain were really amazing. They were descendants of Kings, but they're out in the wild, homeless, lonely etc. Protecting people who don't even know about it, and they're considered to be strange and dangerous people, and they hardly get any credit for their work.

At the time Aragorn came to the throne -how many of those rangers were left in middle earth? I know at one point Eowyn says to Aragorn 'I thought your race had passed into legend' so that ought to mean there aren’t that many left.

[Edited on 29/9/2007 by cirdaneth]
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 15, 2007 04:39
Thanks for keeping this and putting it all together! I was looking for it!

In the Southern Realm, the King, and later the Steward, appointed the Rangers from the men most trusted to nature.
I'm curious to know where in the books this statement is based on?
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 15, 2007 09:36
I think it is based on the situation of Faramir and his men in LotR, where it is obvious that this is the case and has been for some time, possibly since the disappearance of Earnur, the last King. Earnil hasn't posted since 2005 so I don't think we'll get a response there.

Anyone else got any comments?

Glad you've revived this thread Arveleg. I've been editing/merging and renaming lots of old threads in hopes that this might happen. *goes off singing tra-la-tra-la*
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 18, 2007 04:57
Glad you've revived this thread Arveleg. I've been editing/merging and renaming lots of old threads in hopes that this might happen. *goes off singing tra-la-tra-la*

Good on you cirdaneth! A very good idea as it preserves the discussion and shared knowledge of the past.

On the subject of the Rangers of Ithilien, I did a little bit of reading and I couldn't find as yet any specific mention of how the Rangers of Ithilien came to be. My own speculation that I derived from my first readings of the books many many years ago was that they were a sort of elite light reconniasance company made up first by the Gondorian soldiers from Ithilien after they were driven out, and later their descendents since they would have the most knowledge of the area and feel the need to harass the enemy's free movement through 'their' lands. They also would be supplimented by esteemed soldiers from other parts of Gondor who were of like mind, and the company led by someone of high rank. When the movies came out, I thought the portrayal of ther Rangers as a group were close to my vision of them. The difference between them and the soldiers of Gondor, light recon vs heavy infantry, could be readily seen in their attire during the battle of Osgoliath.

As far as the term 'Ranger', I have an interesting, albiet non-canonical, theory of the term as used by the Dunedain in Middle Earth. I'll go into it later if anyone is interested. Also, the name 'Dunedain' I believe is a term used exclusively for the men of and descendants of Numenor, and applies equally to both the north (Arnor) and the south (Gondor). It later was used more in the north as their bloodline remained relatively pure even as their numbers dwindled, while in the south the intermingling with the Northmen kept Gondor strong (despite this leading to a civil war) in numbers, and the term became more of a reference of the Dunedain of the North.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 19, 2007 09:06
Also, the name 'Dunedain' I believe is a term used exclusively for the men of and descendants of Numenor, and applies equally to both the north (Arnor) and the south (Gondor).

I found reference to this in Lotr "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit": "To his amazement, as he listened Frodo became aware that it was the Elven-tongue that they spoke, or one but little different; and he look at them with wonder, for he knew then that they must be Dunedain of the South, men of the line of the Lords of Westernesse."

On the subject of the Rangers of Ithilien, I did a little bit of reading and I couldn't find as yet any specific mention of how the Rangers of Ithilien came to be.


This thread was interesting so I did a bit of research on it too. Couldn't find much but this little bit also from " Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit": " They named themselves Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and they were Rangers of Ithilien; for they were descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun."

I would be interested in your theory about Rangers.

Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 29, 2007 03:28
Dolwen said:
I would be interested in your theory about Rangers.

Well, like I said, it is non-canonical, as it was something I came up with while writing RP. It is based on the fact the term 'ranger' was looked on darkly in Bree at the time the War of the Ring broke out. Canonicly we know the term came into use in reference to the male warriors of the Dunedain sometime after the fall of Arthedain in the Third Age 1974 when Aranarth took the title of Chieftain of the Dunedain. We know that 'Chieftain' was the title held by the firstborn son of the line of Elendil and was the recognized leader of the remnents of the northern Dunedain people, and is assumed to be the Captain of the Dunedain Rangers. The term 'Ranger' however is a bit more vague in its beginnings. As the quotes in this thread show, they were 'wanderers in the wild', 'secret guardians', 'mysterious', 'rarely seen', etc.

My thoughts are there were possibly what was called 'Rangers' in the northern Dunedain military since the time before the Last Alliance and the end of the second age. They would be the lesser men who were left to guard Arnor while the majority of the army rode east to battle Sauron. They would have been ill-considered by the regular army soldiers as being more of a 'militia' with questionable fighting skills and so were given tasks others did not care to do, and so the name got a bad reputation. Later through the years, as Arnor recovered from the losses in that war, the 'rangers' gradually morphed into a 'shadow elite' as they did more and more for the King. and whose deeds were secretive, and they were learned in the skills of stealth and survival in the wild. They were small in number compared to the regular army, and operated as a sort of special forces unit, doing things like long range recon into the lands outside of Arnor and such, and protecting the wilder frontiers from evil sometimes using methods of unconventional warfare. Since their actions were pretty much not spoken of, they added to and gained anew reputation through the lands as being tough, secretive, and dangerous. They worked in the background of the kingdom, and through the fracturing into Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhuadur, and were about until most of them, along with the rest of the Dunedain were wiped out in the attack in the third age 1974. After the Witch King was driven out of Eriador in 1975, Chieftain Aranarth and his brothers found they acted much like the 'rangers' of the kingdom and so were either called, or took that title to refer to themselves.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: November 30, 2007 03:05
Thanks for posting your very interesting theory Arveleg. Seems you put a lot of thought into it and it seems very probable. To bad Tolkien didn't give us a bit more info on the life of the Rangers.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: December 03, 2007 09:46
It’s always worth looking up the words Tolkien uses as he often uses them very precisely, and sometimes revives an archaic or obsolete meaning. So I looked up Ranger. Not obsolete or archaic, but here are two of the definitions from Chambers’ 20th Century Dictionary.

1. … a member of a body of troops, usually mounted and engaged in policing an area.

2. … a soldier especially trained for raiding combat.

… so it would seem that the Northern rangers fit the first definition, and the Ithilien rangers the second.
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: December 04, 2007 04:35
Yeah, I agree with that cirdaneth. It doesn't address the reasons why the Rangers of the north were looked upon darkly unless you add the mysterious and secretive bit, like soldiers trained in raiding.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: December 05, 2007 01:36
One difference between the Rangers of the North, and the Gondorians is that the Gondorians, at the time of the War of the Ring, had far less Numenorian Blood as most had intermingled with the peoples that were already living in Gondor when they arrived in the Second Age. As a result, their lifespans were far shorter than that of the ancient Numenorians and they lossed most of the special characteristics that set the Numenorians apart.
In the North the Numenorian blood ran true as that land was far more sparsely settled and the Rangers, by keeping to themselves , had far less opportunity to intermingle.
It could be argued that the Dunedain still existed in the North, and had all but disappeared, due to interbreeding, in the South.

I have to agree with Cirdaneth that in the North, Ranger referred to the entire Dunedain community, the last remnants of the Arnorians, while in the South, Rangers were more or less just a military group that patrolled Ithilien and possibly some other unnamed areas.
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: December 11, 2007 02:46
I have to agree with Cirdaneth that in the North, Ranger referred to the entire Dunedain community, the last remnants of the Arnorians, while in the South, Rangers were more or less just a military group that patrolled Ithilien and possibly some other unnamed areas.

So in the north, you don't differentiate between the Dunedain and Rangers? I just can't picture women and children being called 'Rangers', hense I only call the Dunedain men who rode about Eriador and fought Rangers.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: June 10, 2008 10:43
OK, so I'm rereading LOTR for the umpteenth time and I get to the part where Gandalf explains to Frodo that the Rangers are the last remnant of the Men of Westernesse and once again I wonder, are there women Rangers? I mean, here are these men leading lonely and nomadic lives, protecting the innocent in secret--but where are their wives? We know about Aragorn and Arwen, of course, but was there, say, a Mrs. Halbarad?

For the Men of Westernesse to have descendants, there must be mothers, but did the women all die out long ago, like the Entwives, leaving their sons to roam the wild as Rangers? Or might there have been settlements somewhere in the North where Rangers' wives and children lived? Or might they have been a nomadic society, somewhat like the native woodland tribes of North America?

Could there be women doing the same dangerous work as Aragorn? (Maybe not in Tolkien's imagination, but PJ's Arwen sure looks like a lady Ranger to me.)

Just wondering. Any thoughts?
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: June 10, 2008 10:44
I think "Men" in this case refers to "people".

Yes, there were Northern Dúnadan women, who most probably took care of their homesteads while the men were out in the wilds; personally, I believe that they would have defended their homes at need, but they hardly went out rangering. The population of that folk was hardly very big at Aragorn's time, though. I remember seeing a reference to something that Tolkien wrote that indicates that the Rangers lived in the Angle between Hoarwell and Loudwater, but I can't find it now, and don't remember where I saw it.
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: June 10, 2008 10:51
I have combined LadyBeruthiel's new thread *Women of the West* with this older Dunedain thread so as to keep the Dunedain stuff together.

This is a great topic LadyB! I shall alert Atalante and see what she can unearth about Dunedain women.
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: June 29, 2008 03:11
OK, so I'm rereading LOTR for the umpteenth time and I get to the part where Gandalf explains to Frodo that the Rangers are the last remnant of the Men of Westernesse and once again I wonder, are there women Rangers? I mean, here are these men leading lonely and nomadic lives, protecting the innocent in secret--but where are their wives? We know about Aragorn and Arwen, of course, but was there, say, a Mrs. Halbarad?

For the Men of Westernesse to have descendants, there must be mothers, but did the women all die out long ago, like the Entwives, leaving their sons to roam the wild as Rangers? Or might there have been settlements somewhere in the North where Rangers' wives and children lived? Or might they have been a nomadic society, somewhat like the native woodland tribes of North America?

Could there be women doing the same dangerous work as Aragorn? (Maybe not in Tolkien's imagination, but PJ's Arwen sure looks like a lady Ranger to me.)

Just wondering. Any thoughts?

Being that this is the book forum, any speculation on how the women were based on P.J.s interpretation is null and void and should be discussed in the movie forum. Sorry ladies.

Yes, the periennial question asked across the world wide web on where did the northern Dunedain live and how the northern Dunedain procreated. Their numbers, ever since the battle of the Last Alliance and the wipe-out of isildur's army in the Gladden Fields shortly thereafter, had dwindled. Add to this the desire to keep their Numenorean blood pure ruled out for the most part intermingling with lesser races of men (as they did in Gondor). So with their intermarrying, there were likely roughly the same number of boys and girls born to the Dunedain couples over the years. With the fragmenting of Arnor into three kingdoms, this likely further limited the marriage opportunities with some families, especially those of Rhuadur. Add to this death from attrition of younger, able-bodied men in the various military campaigns (some generations more than others when troubles arose), and you come to Halbarad's ability to call to him thirty rangers to ride south with him to aid Aragorn. There were likely some few who remained behind in the north to defend the lands from the incursions from the eastern mountains, surely to have increased during the war due to the general rise in evil at the time.

So the question of where the Dunedain men, women and children lived and carried out the social interactions needed to continue procreation of the lines has always been a good one with no real hard answer by Tolkien himself. I read the bit about the Angle, which I believe was speculated by Michael Martinez in his essay based on tidbits of information found in the HoME books, but no actual settlements were ever named. Being that the Hobbit mentions various un-named 'inns' outside of Bree, there were likely homesteads around Eriador. Likely the women were a hardy sort who could tend the children and the home, even in defence while the men were away on their military duties as Rangers. They were likely good at hunting and provision, but they never went out in any military fashion.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: February 06, 2009 06:11
Hey! I just found this among the old threads.
Celebrian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: February 07, 2009 05:37
I find this a very interesting subject. It seems to me that if the Northern contingent were living secretly, securing the bloodlines, it isn't surprising that those writing the accounts available to us (mostly Hobbits) didn't know where the Rangers actually lived.

Personally, I think they must have had some sort of city or settlement somewhere. They would have become very rustic if they just ran around in the woods eating nuts and berries and killing the odd Orc here and there. The Gray Company was not rustic. I also think they probably lived reasonably near Rivendell because they clearly had a lot of contact with that community.

As for the "nature" of the women, Aragorn's mother is the only example I can think of right now. She was certainly no shrinking violet but not a warrior either. I'm afraid that in that sort of culture women would be expected to stay as safe as possible in order to protect the gene pool. I just don't think most of them would have taken on the regular tasks of the Rangers. Of course, there could be exceptions.
Hanasian
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Post RE: The Dunedain Rangers [keep]
on: September 06, 2010 09:11
There's also a brief mention of Ivorwen, Gilrain's mother & Aragorn's grand-mother.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Hanasian
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on: October 20, 2013 06:44
I had to go digging to find this gem of a thread. It just about covers everything on the subject!
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
tarcolan
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on: October 20, 2013 02:50
Well bumped Arveleg. Digging is half the fun isn't it?
Hanasian
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on: October 26, 2013 06:10
Yeah it is. Except I was in a discussion about the Dunedain Rangers when I remembered this thread from years back and went to search for it. It has all the passages in the books about them, which came in handy.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Hanasian
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on: March 11, 2015 04:28
Hmm.... I'm pretty sure I posted to this about 9 hours ago, yet it seems enything in the Books Forum beyond the end of January has disappeared since that time?

Anyway... I was again glad to have this thread the other day when I was in a discussion about the Dunedain Rangers.
I'll ask a question for comment/speculation... After the War of the Ring, what became of the Dunedain Rangers?
For over a thousand years, they were the chief fighting force of the Northern Dunedain, and were still a force to be reckoned with at the time of the war. Indeed, Theoden was glad of Halbarad and the thirty others' arrival.

So, after the Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor was restored under Elessar, what became of the Rangers?
Were they the vanguard of the Royal Guard of the North?
Were they an elite group of "commandos" at the King's disposal?
Did they just cease to exist as an entity?

Thoughts?

(Let's see if this post sticks this time)
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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on: March 12, 2015 02:11
LoTR Appendix B, "Later events concerning the members of the Fellowship of The Ring", entry 1426 SR: "King Elessar rides north, and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim (north of the Shire, separated from it by mountains; the northern capital of the Reunited Kingdom and former capital of Arnor, Annúminas, lies at the south-west tip of the lake). He comes to the Brandywine Bridge, and there greets his friends (and does not enter the Shire, as he had banned all of the Big Folk from doing so, including himself). ..."
So Aragorn had kingly business in restored Arnor, but again, we are sorely lacking details.

To go WAY back: Elendil had four ships, Isildur three, and Anárion two, when they escaped the downfall of Númenor. How many people can fit, even under emergency conditions, on a Númenorean sailing ship?

In Wikipedia, educated guesses as to the capacity of the largest Chinese ships of the early 15th century (admiral Zheng He cruising the Indian Ocean) top out at 1000 people. So maybe the Númenorean ships were a bit larger, but a bit over 10000 people would have been the maximum number of refugees from Númenor.

That's not a lot of people to establish Kingdoms. But then, the Celtic-speaking peoples seem to have done just that across much of Europe in the first millennium BC. As did the Indo-European speakers the odd millennium before that.

But over whom did Elendil (in Arnor) and Isildur and Anárion (in Gondor) establish Kingdoms? The only similar situation that JRRT describes is the Rohirrim displacing the Dunlendings when the former settled in what was to become Rohan.

Maybe the Númenoreans were wiser, and brought their subjects so much to better their lives that the then subjects had nothing to complain about, while the Dunlendings and Rohirrim were too close in their level of civilization and proneness to warfare to be able to get along.

And then: how densely or sparsely were what were to become the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor populated by Aborigines? Were there populations of Númenoreans who had settled there from earlier times?

How did Annúminas compare in size and population to Osgiliath? (I'm assuming a comparison to Minas Anor / Tirith is trivial)

And why (except for the chance of him and his ships having landed in Lindon) did Elendil choose to rule over Arnor directly, leaving the direct rule over Gondor to be shared by his sons? (He himself remaining High King of both realms).

Guess: HoME is four volumes too short - for once for lack of substance.
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Hanasian
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on: March 12, 2015 05:12
Good thoughts Gandolonian! They bring up a wider scope of questions, and it seems more questions begat more questions, and is only left to speculation. Let's take the island of Numenor... Let's say that (based on the 'Numenor' entry on Encyclopedia of Arda) at the widest distance of the island from coast to coast is roughly 600 miles (from the northwestern cape of Andustar to the southeastern cape of Hyrrostar). What would be the population of Numenor at it's height? Consider that a portion of the island was used in food production and tree farming for use to build their mighty ships, and there was a mountain peak of Meneltarma. They had the ability to build great fleets, and man them, Have great armies, and man them, colonise Middle Earth at various places before the downfall, and such. l have a tough time picturing all this being sustainable on an island that size. We know that their need for tree resources led them to pretty much deforest western Middle Earth and displace the indigenous people. Always an interesting study! Thanks for your insights!
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Gandolorin
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on: March 20, 2015 04:47
Arveleg said:Good thoughts Gandolonian! ...

Arveleg ... tut tut tut, you're a seasoned CoE member - you should be able to keep Gando and Gondo apart. Image

Nah!

[Edited on 03/23/2015 by Gandolorin]
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Hanasian
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on: March 20, 2015 11:01
Not after a few beers....
I'll edit if it bothers you that much.
Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
Hanasian
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on: May 28, 2023 10:51
Just had to find this thread again... can't believe I haven't posted my fav passage from the books here yet.

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This has to be one of my favourite passages from the Lord of the Rings books....


From Chapter II of Return of the King. Passing of the Grey Company.

... They had not long passed the mounds at the Fords of Isen, when a Rider galloped up from the back of their line.

'My Lord,' he said to the king. 'there are horsemen behind us. As we crossed the fords I thought that I heard them. Now we are sure. They are overtaking us, riding hard.'

Théoden at once called a halt. The Riders turned about and seized their spears. Aragorn dismounted and set Merry on the ground, and drawing his sword he stood by the king's stirrup. Éomer and his esquire rode back to the rear. Merry felt more like unneeded baggage than ever, and he wondered, if there was a fight, what he should do. Supposing the king's small escort was trapped and overcome but he escaped into the darkness - alone in the wild fields of Rohan with no idea of where he was in all the endless miles? 'No good' he thought. He drew his sword and tightened his belt.

The sinking moon was obscured by a great sailing cloud, but suddenly it rode out clear again. Then they all heard the sound of hoofs, and at the same moment they saw dark shapes coming swiftly on the path from the fords. The moonlight glinted here and there on the points of spears. The number of the pursuers could not be told, but they seemed no fewer than the king's escort, at the least.

When they were some fifty paces off, Éomer cried out in a loud voice : 'Halt! Halt! Who rides in Rohan?'

The pursuers brought their steeds to a sudden stand. A silence followed; and then in the moonlight, a horseman could be seen dismounting and walking slowly forward. His hand showed white as he held it up, palm outward, in token of peace; but the king's men gripped their weapons. At ten paces the man stopped. He was tall, a dark standing shadow. Then his clear voice rang out.

'Rohan? Rohan did you say? That is a glad word. We seek that land in haste from long afar.'

'You have found it.'
said Éomer. 'When you crossed the fords yonder you entered it. But it is the realm of Théoden the King. None ride here save by his leave. Who are you? And what is your haste?'

'Halbarad Dúnedain, Ranger of the North I am.'
cried the man 'We seek one Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and we heard that he was in Rohan.'

'And you have found him also!'
cried Aragorn. Giving his reigns to Merry, he ran forward and embraced the newcomer. 'Halbarad!' he said. 'Of all joys this is the least expected!'

Merry breathed a sigh of relief. He thought that this was some last trick of Saruman's, to waylay king while he had only a few men about him; but it seemed there would be no need to die in Théoden's defence, not yet at any rate. He sheathed his sword.

'All is well.' said Aragorn, turning back. 'Here are some of my own kin from the far land where I dwelt. But why they come, and how many they be, Halbarad shall tell us.'

'I have thirty with me.'
said Halbarad. 'That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to the war. We rode swiftly as we might when your summons came.'

'But I did not summon you,' said Aragorn, 'save only in wish. My thoughts have often turned to you, and seldom more than tonight; yet I have sent no word. But come! All such matters must wait. You find us riding in haste and danger. Ride with us now, if the king will give his leave.'


Théoden was indeed glad of the news. 'It is well!' he said. 'If these kinsmen be in any way like to yourself, my lord Aragorn, thirty such knights will be a strength that cannot be counted by heads.'

Then the Riders set out again, and Aragorn for a while rode with the Dunedain; and when they had spoken of tidings in the North and in the South, Elrohir said to him :

'I bring word to you from my father : "The Days are short. If thou art in haste, remember the Paths of the Dead."'

'Always my days have seemed to me short to achieve my desire.'
answered Aragorn. 'But great indeed will be my haste ere I take that road.'

'That will soon be seen.'
said Elrohir. 'But let us speak no more of these things upon the open road!'

And Aragorn said to Halbarad : 'What is that that you bear, kinsman?'
For he saw that instead of a spear he bore a tall staff, as it were a standard, but it was close-furled in a black cloth bound about with many thongs.

'It is a gift that I bring you from the Lady of Rivendell.' answered Halbarad. 'She wrought it in secret, and long was the making. But she also sends word to you : "The days now are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well Elfstone!"'

And Aragorn said : 'Now I know what you bear. Bear it still for me a while!' And he turned and looked away to the North under the great stars, and then he fell silent and spoke no more while the night's journey lasted.[/size]

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Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.
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