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Figwit
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Post 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 02, 2003 11:12
The first TTT chapter!!!! yeay... [well, not yeay, more like and :cry: --> runs from scary green smilie]

Anyway, here are a few things to think about:

- How do you see the character of Boromir as a whole? What kind of man is he, psychologically? What is his function in the story? Does he represent an archetype or a typical literary figure?

- Why does Boromir die? Do you think Tolkien just randomly killed off a character, or did he have a point?

- What do we learn about Aragorn in this chapter? Do you think he makes the right decision in the end?

- Why is this chapter placed at the beginning of TTT and not at the end of FOTR?

PbHf's Quote of the Week can be found here and discusses the passing of Boromir.

As ever, if you have any other questions concerning this chapter, pm me!

[Edited on 29/3/2004 by Figwit]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 03, 2003 06:17
Has Aragorn actually made a decision or is he still avoiding his destiny? Doses the decision to follow the orcs really reflect a hope to rescue the Hobbits ar he is just delaying a decision to proceed to Minas Tirith and announce himself as heir to the throne? Do the three of them really have any realistic chance at all of defeating a large troop of orcs?
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 03, 2003 07:54
Wow, PbHf, that's mind reading if nothing else
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 03, 2003 07:56
Something I find interesting about this quote is that Aragorn didn't even mention the third choice he had, and the one he finally makes. He laments about either going to Minas Tirith or helping Frodo but at this point he doesn't even consider the path he finally chooses - to follow the orcs that have taken Merry and Pipppin captive.


I think the problem there is that Boromir has just died and he "laid upon" Aragorn the task of going to Minas Tirith and "saving his people".

Really, of course, Aragorn wants to go there, but he could not do that and know that Merry and Pippin were possibly being tortured by Orcs and/or Saruman. So his choice ends up whether to follow Frodo or to go after the other hobbits; he chooses the desperate chasing of the Orcs with, I think, the belief that maybe the hunters could rescue the hobbits.

I don't think he was avoiding Minas Tirith. Was he trying to "change the evil fate of this unhappy day"? Absolutely, cause the book says so *snicker*
Beleg_S
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 03, 2003 10:49
This is my first post in the Book Club, so please forgive me if I ramble on for too long!

I see the character of Boromir as someone who is very loyal and patriotic. He is loyal both to the Fellowship, and to Gondor and his father; but unfortunately, the aim of the Fellowship differs from Boromir and his father's ideas. He wants the Ring for his father, not for himself, and truly believes that it will help Gondor. Yes, he is tempted by the Ring, but so are most men - even Faramir is briefly tempted by the Ring (albeit, not to the extent that he's tempted in the film) and so is Aragorn. The difference between these two Men and Boromir is that Aragorn and Faramir could see further than Boromir: they had more wisdom in such matters, and could see that the Ring cannot be used for doing good, and that the only thing to do is for it to be destroyed. Boromir doesn't see this, and doesn't understand the concept that the Ring would not save Gondor. Perhaps the fact that Denethor loved Boromir greater than Faramir contributed to the different reactions to the Ring of these two brothers; but then again, Faramir still wanted to please his father, and only disobeyed him as he could see that the destruction of the Ring was absolutely necessary, no matter what his father may have thought.

Boromir's function in the story may be (but not limited to) causing friction in the Fellowship: a friction that was necessary for the Fellowship to be broken - the Fellowship breaking is obviously something that needed to happen in order for the Quest to be completed, so Tolkien may have placed the character of Boromir in the story to provide this friction that would eventually lead to the Fellowship being broken. With Boromir in the Fellowship, there's bound to be some sort of sundering, right from the start. Boromir clearly wants to (and is adamant that he will) return to Minas Tirith, whereas Frodo's aim is obviously to get into Mordor.

I very much doubt that Boromir's death was just a random idea of Tolkien's: again, Boromir's death contributes to the breaking of the Fellowship. Fair enough, perhaps his death wasn’t necessary for the Fellowship to split, as Boromir would have gone to Minas Tirith anyway, but if he wasn't killed, then the story could have turned out a whole lot differently. The Quest probably couldn't have been achieved had Boromir not died, so Tolkien was again paving the way for the Ring to be ultimately destroyed.

His death also provides Aragorn with motivation to go to Gondor, rather than with Frodo. Aragorn says in this chapter that his road was now clearer than it had been - he understands now that Frodo must go alone (with Sam, of course!) and that his task is, in the short-term, to rescue Merry and Pippin; the thought of going to Gondor is at the back of his mind, prominent, but that can't happen until Merry and Pippin are safe. Whether he believed that he, Legolas and Gimli could rescue Merry and Pippin is irrelevant: there are two members of the Fellowship in danger of being tortured and maybe even killed, and Aragorn is not going to let that happen if he can help it.

I think that this chapter is placed where it is because the Fellowship of the Ring is Frodo's story. It ends with Frodo, and the doings of Aragorn et al in this chapter open up new questions and plot lines that aren't connected with Frodo: Book Three is entirely about Aragorn, so anything concerning him (when Frodo isn't there) should be placed in that book, rather than at the end of Book Two, which is Frodo's story. Also, I think that Tolkien wanted to end Aragorn's side of the story in the Fellowship of the Ring with a bit of uncertainty, and then tie up all of the loose ends at the start of the Two Towers. However, I do think that the filmmakers made the right decision in putting this chapter at the end of FotR rather than TTT: for the purposes of film, this works much better, as it provides both an emotional finale, and a clear end to the story as a whole.

There's one thing I'd like to ask about this chapter: in the commentary to FotR, Philippa Boyens says that she thinks Boromir's death scene in the film is one of the scenes that they improved from the book. I agree with her - this scene in the film is more emotional than the same scene in the book: why do you think Boromir's death scene isn't written very emotionally in the book? We know that Tolkien's great at writing the emotional stuff, so why not here? Is he trying to down-play the reader's emotions concerning Boromir? If so, then why? Is it because the reader needs to feel detached from Boromir at this point in the story? Is it because Tolkien wants to play Boromir as someone who we shouldn't really like? If so, why?

Phew! That turned out to be quite an essay, didn't it?!



[Edited on 4/11/2003 by Beleg_S]
Alquatari
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 04, 2003 12:39
Why is this chapter placed at the beginning of TTT and not at the end of FOTR?

Book two ends with the breaking of fellowship and since that time fellowship is divided into three main groups: Sam and Frodo; Merry and Pippin; and the third: Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. And this third group starts its own story with mourning for Boromir. This is a bitter beginning.
May be it is a symbol: story isn’t ended with man’s death. Everyone dies one day but history goes on.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 04, 2003 09:09
I see Boromir as first and foremost a soldier, who looks at things from the point of view of a military commander. The Ring is a powerful weapon – why not use it? And, despite what the wiser ones have said, he doesn’t fully accept the fact that it cannot be wielded by anyone but Sauron himself, and that makes him the weakest link of the Fellowship, in a way. But, no doubt he’s a strong and valiant man, and after coming to his senses after Frodo’s escape, he doesn’t hesitate to take a stand against the orcs, even though the odds are against him. His death continues one of the basic themes of the story: sacrificing oneself for others.

Aragorn’s decision reflects another aspect of the story: the solidarity to one’s friends. He knows that there’s nothing more he can do to help Frodo at the moment; going straight to Minas Tirith would perhaps be the most logical choice, but that would mean leaving two of his friends in the hands of the enemy, and that’s something he doesn’t want to do, if it only is possible to rescue them.

I think that the lack of too much emotion in the book in Boromir’s death scene also tells something about his character. He declares what he has done, and that he understands now that he made a mistake – he wants to tell the most important things as long as he is able. And, I think there’s quite a lot of emotion in his funeral scene, although it may be a bit “between the lines”.

Hope you get something from my ramblings – it’s 9 pm here, and I’m not at my sharpest anymore…
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 05, 2003 04:16
first of all, I mostly agree with what has already been said about Boromir, so I'm not going to add to that [*hears some people sigh with relief in the distance*]

why do you think Boromir's death scene isn't written very emotionally in the book? We know that Tolkien's great at writing the emotional stuff, so why not here? Is he trying to down-play the reader's emotions concerning Boromir? If so, then why? Is it because the reader needs to feel detached from Boromir at this point in the story? Is it because Tolkien wants to play Boromir as someone who we shouldn't really like? If so, why? ~ Beleg_S


I agree with Morwinyoniel that Boromir would have wanted to say the necessary things first - he is indeed a soldier and he's really stuck in that frame of mind.
Mushy stuff just wouldn't fit Boromir, I feel, although I've always wondered about hims relationship with the other members of the Fellowship.

I also find it strange that Gimli doesn't get a verse, though we know from Moria that he can sing.

I don't know how Tolkien wanted us to percieve Boromir: he is a great character, with great psychological depth, but he appears so little that a lot of (less attentive) readers overlook his inner strength and his desperate attempt to do some good.
Erutanie_Litsos
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 06, 2003 05:49
Hey, this is isn't really following every one else's line of thinking, just a something I saw in this chapter...

I think is was interesting that in the movie, Aragorn says, "No! You fought bravely." Refering to his orc fight. Yet in the book Aragorn says, "No! You have conquered. Few have gained such a vicory." Could this mean something else besides "you killed those orcs well, Boromir, good job"? I think it could be refering to him repenting from trying to betray Frodo and the Fellowship. By his confessing to Aragorn before he dies, he proves that he understands he must fess up and pay for his folly and that is the ultimate victory in my book, and might have been in Tolkien's mind also!

Just a little thought from a little known elf.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 07, 2003 03:32
I think it could be refering to him repenting from trying to betray Frodo and the Fellowship. By his confessing to Aragorn before he dies, he proves that he understands he must fess up and pay for his folly and that is the ultimate victory in my book, and might have been in Tolkien's mind also!


That's what I think as well is the "victory" Aragorn refers to. Boromir fell for the lure of the Ring, but was able to come back to his senses, and redeem himself in the end.

[Edited on 7/11/2003 by Morwinyoniel]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 09, 2003 12:00
I agree Erutánië_Litsos and Morwinyoniel. That's one of the most amazing aspects of Boromir, as a character, to me: that he is able to overcome his own faillure. He doesn't wallow in shame or guilt, and he doesn't try to lie his way out of it. I think that's pretty much the essence of a good man, and it's something that I learned from this character.

There I go again. [Must not speak about Boromir too much]

Anyway, very good point; Erutánië, I had almost overlooked that line. And thank you for mentioning how they changed it in the movie: that is indeed very significant.
DrDoodoo2003
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 24, 2003 10:44
I disagree with all of you. Boromir is a weakling. He is a descendent of the last line of Númenor. the blood of Numenor is all but spent. Boromir is a common man. He is unable to resist the temptation of the ring unlike Aragorn. I understand that this was not Boromir's fault. However, the way he treats Frodo in the movie make him a dispiccable fellow.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 24, 2003 11:58
I disagree with all of you. Boromir is a weakling. He is a descendent of the last line of Númenor. the blood of Numenor is all but spent.


So is Aragorn .... Is the blood of Numenor all but spent? Is Aragorn a weakling?

Boromir is a common man.


No he isn't. He is of the Line of the Stewards of Gondor - high-ranking Gondorians, and most likely related to the Kings of Gondor.

He is unable to resist the temptation of the ring unlike Aragorn. I understand that this was not Boromir's fault.


Boromir has a more immediate need for the Ring - he is desperate for it, desperate to help Gondor - don't you think that would make him more susceptible to its power?

However, the way he treats Frodo in the movie make him a dispiccable fellow.


no he isn't - he is a desperate man, a man wanting to help his father and his country, a man willing to try almost anything. Is that despicable?
evenstar_451
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 24, 2003 11:39
Boromir is definetly no weakling, he reminds me of the classic tragedy figure, a good and noble man whose downfall is brought about by flaw. In this case his desire for the Ring. His warrior's motivation to fight fire with fire unfortunately leads to his death.
I think he was killed off to give us a working example of how the Ring will turn all good intentions to evil because even though we know how evil it is we haven't actually seen firsthand the effects of it yet just heard the tales of others. The corruption and death of such a man as Boromir truely opens our eyes to the full potential of this thing.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: November 25, 2003 12:55
However, the way he treats Frodo in the movie make him a dispiccable fellow.


Well, he treats him pretty much the same in the book, although he gives more (and better) arguments for his case.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: January 02, 2004 01:29
Boromir has changed from FotR to TTT .
His words were the words of his father , but now he is dying , he feels those words were born in jealousy and ignorance .
Boromir is someone who loved his father , but knew Denethor's reasons were wrong .
The Ring cannot be wielded by anyone safe Sauron .
Boromir tried to take the Ring from Frodo and so he fell .
( literally in the movie , then he stood up again and regretted his deeds ) .
Because he is trained as a soldier , with noble meanings , he tries to find Frodo and - swear him his allegiance
- tell him he will abandon the Fellowship
and go back to the city ,
but he finds Merry and Pippin instead , and dies .
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: January 02, 2004 10:34
Boromir has changed from FotR to TTT .


I'd rather say he's still the same person: like you say he's always known in a way that destroying it would be the best option.

What I've always loved about him is indeed his desire to 'get up on his feet' again.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: January 29, 2004 10:15
I think Boromir is a good man, but his problem is that he's a man, and men are more susceptible to the power of the ring, and Boromir more than other men as he feels the ring could help save his people, and that's a very important thing to him. He may be succumb to the ring and try and take it from Frodo, but he admits the error of his ways and tries to set things right, and after saying "curse you and all halflings to death and darkness" he then fights to save Merry and Pippin, the madness has passed and he is himself again and fights to save his friends.
I believe Tolkien decided to kill Boromir as it leads to what else happens and every event is essential to the overall plot. I don't think anything in the book is really random, it has some sort of purpose. If Boromir hadn't died they may either have not gone after the hobbits, and gone straight to Minas Tirith instead, so not have meet Gandalf and gone to Edoras and fought in the battle of Helms Deep. Boromir being dead made it easier for them to decide to go after the hobbits, it also show the cost of what they are trying to accomplish and of succumbing to the power of the ring.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: January 29, 2004 10:34
spoilers for The Two Towers

Yes, he is tempted by the Ring, but so are most men - even Faramir is briefly tempted by the Ring (albeit, not to the extent that he's tempted in the film)


I don't think Faramir is tempted by the ring at all. In the book he says he wouldn't pick it up if it was lying by the roadside.

In the film, his desire is to prove himself to his father - that's his main temptation. I don't think at any point is he actually tempted by the ring itself.

And Faramir was my favourite character in the book, and to say I was disturbed by the changes in him in the movie edition of the TT is to put it mildly. Until I saw the EE - and combined with ROTK I actually prefer PJs Faramir!

Sorry - gone off topic there.

edited to say: I've added a spoiler notice Rosie!

[Edited on 1/2/2004 by Figwit]
ElvenMaiden85
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: February 15, 2004 10:35
I don't know if anyone will read this b/c it's so far down, but here goes . . .

I think that Boromir and Aragorn are opposites. Aragorn has a very specific purpose in this film, to become King, and as such is potrayed as the more Superman person. He knows what is needed and he knows he can do it so he does it. Peroid. And, because he's such a master tracker/swordsman/whatever, he does it well.

Boromir, on the other hand, is more human than Aragorn (does that even make sense?) He knows that the ring is evil, he knows that it would destroy him if he took it, but it's just ... so ... tempting. Where Aragorn is a very solid, stable person, Boromir is flawed deeply.

And that's probably why Tolkien killed him off. First, to show that, despite all his faults, Boromir really was a good guy. He, after all, does give his life to save Merry and Pippin's. Also, because if he didn't die, he might come after the Ring again, this time more forcably, and really take it from Frodo. Lastly, I agree with Beleg_S, it was a catalyst for the separation of the Fellowship, although I don't agree that the Fellowship had to split to allow the success of the mission.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: March 31, 2004 05:54
Hello, I've just begun to read the first chapter of The Two Towers: The Depature Of Boromir.

Boromir seems noble, tempted by the Ring not because of weakness but out of desire to save Gondor.
Tolkein had to have a reason for Boromir's death. He was tempted by the Ring, making him seem evil at the moment, but in the end he proved his nobleness by defending Merry and Pippin, although it was in vain (but not completely.) He did not die needlessly. The story line would be completely different and the fate of Denethor and Faramir rest on this event.
I think this chapter was in The Two Towers rather than FOTR because Tolkien wanted a cliffhanger to end the first book?

[Edited on 1/4/2004 by PippinSkywalker]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: April 01, 2004 04:49
Boromir seems noble, tempted by the Ring not because of weakness but out of desire to save Gondor.


Sums my thoughts up perfectly indeed.
EruanwenSaeriel
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: April 05, 2004 05:44
Boromir was never evil. He was tempted. The ring is very seductive. Boromir was tempted AND he felt an obligation to his father and to Gondor. The ring of power was to him a military solution to the onslaught of the orc hordes from Mordor. Like the elves they were fighting the "long defeat" and Boromir saw the possiblity of wielding the ring to save his country and his people. His death was the key to the breakup of the fellowship. Without that death, Frodo would not have felt it necessary to leave the fellowship and Merry and Pippin would not have been taken by the orcs - so Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli would then not have had to hunt them down - and then, they wouldn't have ventured into Rohan - and then......
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: April 06, 2004 06:34
Boromir's such a Shakespearian/Aristotelian tragic figure this way — the great, noble man with a tragic flaw, defeated by his inability to see beyond the needs of his own country. If we were given a vaster sweep of his history, we might see Saruman this way too, but in the limits of LOTR, his greatness and nobility aren't seen.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: April 07, 2004 02:13
If we were given a vaster sweep of his history, we might see Saruman this way too, but in the limits of LOTR, his greatness and nobility aren't seen.


Treebeard suggests as much in TTT when he's talking about Saruman - I've always felt that Boromir and Saruman/Gríma are two sides of one coin, because in the end Boromir does realise he did something wrong and he doesn't choose to cover it up.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: April 13, 2004 02:41
I think Boromir did what he thought was right at the time becuase that is how his father created him. He is his father til he tries to save Merry and Pippin. Then he becomes who, he should be. so therefore does not need to be in the book any longer he made his personal journey.
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Post RE: 3.I.: The Depature Of Boromir
on: January 10, 2007 06:28
Something I find interesting about this quote is that Aragorn didn't even mention the third choice he had, and the one he finally makes. He laments about either going to Minas Tirith or helping Frodo but at this point he doesn't even consider the path he finally chooses - to follow the orcs that have taken Merry and Pipppin captive.


I think the problem there is that Boromir has just died and he "laid upon" Aragorn the task of going to Minas Tirith and "saving his people".

Really, of course, Aragorn wants to go there, but he could not do that and know that Merry and Pippin were possibly being tortured by Orcs and/or Saruman. So his choice ends up whether to follow Frodo or to go after the other hobbits; he chooses the desperate chasing of the Orcs with, I think, the belief that maybe the hunters could rescue the hobbits.

I don't think he was avoiding Minas Tirith. Was he trying to "change the evil fate of this unhappy day"? Absolutely, cause the book says so *snicker*


He might have been avoiding Minas Tirith, things complicated with Boromir. It was his plan to go with Boromir, who believed his claim, and help deliver Gondor (whatever that means) but now, with Boromir gone he couldn't walk into the White City and proclaim that he is Isildur's heir and also delivering the news of Boromir's death.
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