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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 21, 2003 01:27
From The Two Towers, chapter V, 'The White Rider';
'Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'


Just how significant is Gandalf's change from Grey to White?

[Edited on 28/1/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 22, 2003 08:44
I guess it's only natural that once Saruman loses his 'goodness' he also has to give up his rank... but that would be assuming there was a rank? I don't know: is there really this strict hierarchy amongst the Istari? And if so: was it laid on them by the Valar?
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 24, 2003 02:58
Saruman's status and his apparent change in status must have been determined by the Valar that sent the Istari to middle-Earth. He had already changed his own status by wearing a many-coloured cloak anyway but this makes it obvious that Gandalf is now the 'leader' of the Istari on Middle-earth and has supplanted Saruman's former role..
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 25, 2003 11:17
you know, it just puzzles me a bit that Gandalf has always - by Galadriel for instance, and by some others as well apparently - been considered the wisest of the two, yet Saruman was 'in command'... but was he really, or is that just a misconception?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 26, 2003 09:51
I just happened to read the chapter "The Istari" from Unfinished Tales to find an answer for someone who asked why only Gandalf succeeded in his task. Judging from that chapter, Gandalf was probably the only one of the Istari who really understood what they were against - he honestly confessed that he feared Sauron - and in no point did he overestimate his own powers, even as Gandalf the White. So, I would say that he really was wiser than Saruman. But, Saruman was regarded as the head of the Order - his status in Valinor was probably the highest of those who came to Middle Earth, and maybe he originally was also the most powerful.
Naurlas
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 26, 2003 03:11
I always wondered why out of all the Istari, Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan? Saurman would have been the natural choice as "leader" of their order. Would Gandalf have been the
Valar's unspoken choice due to his spending a greater part of his time with Este in Lorien, absorbing knowledge of healing and hope from her? Why was it given to him instead of Saurman, who (I assume) came to ME with a heart as pure as the others but had the greater sway over Men's hearts?

Just something I've puzzled over myself, in the long night between going to see RoTK...again.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 26, 2003 10:58
Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf because he knew that the Wizard would need it in the future to aid him in his work. We know with near certainty that at the very least he and Galadriel knew that Gandalf was the one in which they should lay their hopes for the future of Middle-earth. Unfortunately, and I wonder for what reason, Saruman was chosen to head the White Council and not Gandalf.

It says in the Sil that the Chiefs of the Istari were Saruman and Gandalf both, but that Saruman was older and arrived first thus making him the Chief if there had to be a distinction between the two.

Also, and maybe I am forgetting the time that Gandalf spent with Este, but I always thought the time he spent with Nienna to be the most significant in developing his character. She it was who taught him pity and patience. Maybe I forgot about Este...
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 27, 2003 10:09
Unfortunately, and I wonder for what reason, Saruman was chosen to head the White Council and not Gandalf.


well, he was *chosen*, so maybe he already used his voice there?
Naurlas
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 27, 2003 02:18
Your right Nienna, I got my Valier mixed up :blush: he was a pupil to Nienna, not Este.

well, he was *chosen*, so maybe he already used his voice there


Seems the use of voice for persuasion was a theme for the evil in ME: Melkor persuading Feanor to rise against the Valar and Sauron's appearance in Ost-in-Edhil in the forging of the rings. Gandalf (as grey wizard) Aragorn(as ranger) and Frodo didn't automatically inspire trust in their pursuits, except by the people that knew who they truly were.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 28, 2003 12:41
Seems the use of voice for persuasion was a theme for the evil in ME: Melkor persuading Feanor to rise against the Valar and Sauron's appearance in Ost-in-Edhil in the forging of the rings

Mmmm that is true and we know that Saruman used his voice during LotR so it is possible that he was using it then in hope of being appointed the head of the Council. But, would Galadriel and Elrond be easily ensnared by his "spell"?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 28, 2003 08:20
Unfortunately, and I wonder for what reason, Saruman was chosen to head the White Council and not Gandalf.

Gandalf simply refused the office. From the Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the head of of the Council, (...) but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons.

Note that Galadriel trusted more in Gandalf from the beginning - she was an excellent judge of character indeed!
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 28, 2003 08:39
Ahhhh thanks Morwinyoniel, forgot about that!
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: December 29, 2003 02:31
oh yes, I completely forgot about that too Nienna... thanks Morwinyoniel for bringing that up

I wonder if that is already a sign of Saruman's corruption: that he *is* willing to accept such a task. He's also the only one out of the three known wizards who really has a dwelling place: Radagst's in Mirkwood if I'm not mistaken, but he's a bit of a wanderer; and Gandalf doesn't really have one...
tathiel_of_lindon
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Post RE: Quote of the Week - Dec. 21st/2003 (3.V.)
on: June 11, 2014 12:56
'Gandalf simply refused the office. From the Silmarillion, [i]Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age'



Does that remind you of anyone...?(HP)
"One does not simply walk into Mordor"
Lotr46
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Post Quotes from lotr
on: March 20, 2017 11:16
"It is useless to meet revenge with revenge, it heals nothing."
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