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notorious1
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Post the numbers of armies
on: February 16, 2005 02:14
Does anyone know how many soldiers fought in the great battles of ME? i know that there were 10000 uruk-hais and dunlendings at hornburg and 6000 rohirim at peleenor field. From the Sil i know only of 10000 gondolidrim the came to aid from Gondolin. can you tell me?

Peleenor fields
battle of 5 armies
1,2,3,4,5, battles for beleriand
last alliance
war of the wrath?
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 16, 2005 04:01
Tolkien usually doesn't mention the size of the armies.

Actually, there were more that 10 000 Orcs and Dunlendings in Helm's deep. I think it was more like 10 000 at the very least

At the Siege of Gondor, there were about 3000 soldier from the outlands (Dol Amroth, Anfalas, Lebennin etc.). I'm not sure how many soldiers the city itself had.

There were indeed 6000 Rohirrim on the Pelennor Fields. As for the numbers of Sauron's armies, they're not mentioned in the LotR, but I think it must have been something like
100 000, but that's just my guess. The Haradrim numbered about 18 000.(the LotR states the they outnumbered the Rohirrim by three times)

At the battle of the 5 armies, I only know that there were 500 dwarves. The numbers of the other armies are unknown, but I guess the Elves and Men numbered about 1000-2000. Maybe a little less. If they had larger numbers, I don't think the dwarves would have attacked them, unless they were unaware of the Elves' and Men's full strength. The orcs must have numbered something close to 10 000 I guess, as they outnumbered their enemy spectacularly.

As for the five battles in Beleriand, we can only guess, But I think all of them, apart from the first one, were very great. We'd be talking about hundreds of thousands of orcs, and somewhat smaller numbers of Elves and Edain. Maybe the second and third battles were smaller. But the Bragollach and the Nirnaeth were probably huge.

The War of Wrath....well, the plains of Anfauglith couldn't contain all the armies, so you get the idea. The army of the west was the biggest army ever in ME.

The Battle of the Last alliance must have been quite huge too. Hundreds of thousands on both sides I guess.
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 17, 2005 01:03
on the seige of Minas tirith there was around 300 000 orcs.
and Gondolin?? Millions!!
notorious1
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 17, 2005 11:31
And how many variags an easterling were there?
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 18, 2005 06:10
Millions of orcs at the sack of Gondolin? I don't think there were that many. Maybe Morgoth had a few million orcs, all his armies combined but even that seems way too much to me. Id'd say there were up to a 100 000 at Gondolin, but probably less. But there were more Orcs surrounding the mountains to prevent any of the Gondolindrim from escaping. Maybe there were a few hundred thousand if you count all of those as well, but there were never a few million.

300 000 on the Pelennor fields...well, Remember that the combined forces of 5000-10 000 Gondorians (we don't know the exact number), 6000 Rohirrim and a few thousand soldiers from Lebennin won the battle. I don't think there were 300 000. I think a number close to 100 000 would be more accurate. Maybe even less.

[Edited on 18/2/2005 by Eärnur]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 07:36
There are actually very few accurate numbers of different armies given in the books. The army of Gondolin in the Nirnaeth, the "more than five hundred" dwarves in the battle of Five Armies, the forces of Rohan and Isengard at Helm's Deep, the Rohirrim at Pelennor, some of the reinforcements from the Southern Fiefs of Gondor, the 1000 cavalry and 6000 infantry that set out to Morannon, and from which about a thousand were left out at some points of the journey. All else is speculation, more or less.

Some estimates for the battle of Pelennor Fields are given in Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth; according to that, the total estimated forces of Gondor (including the Rohirrim and the men Aragorn brought by ship with him) were about 11,250 and of Mordor (including the Easterlings and Haradrim) at least 45,000. These estimates are calculated from what is known from the LOTR, and sound quite logical; but we must remember that they were not stated by Tolkien himself.

The forces of 200,000 for Mordor, as it was presented in the movie, were rather exaggerated in my opinion.
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 07:47
Yeah, I agree with Morwinyoniel. Most of it is just speculation.
I'd say there were more than 11 250 Gondorians and Rohirrim. If the armies of Mordor numbered 45 000 (I think there must have been more, but alright..), 11 250 would not be enough to defeat them. Remember that the forces of Mordor had an enormous psychological advantage because of the Nazgûl. I also remember Faramir saying that it was the Black Captain, not the enemy's numbers that defeated them. I estimate the combined force of Gondor and Rohan at the Pelennor t have been around 20 000 altogether.

But that's just my opinion...
nolofinwe
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 08:24
in a book of mine (lord of the rings:wapens&warfare) there is also something about the battle of dagorlad (the last alliance) and there they say the combined armies of gil-galad and elendil where about 100,000 men(and elve) strong.
the armies of mordor where estimated at 500,000 orcs, although I don't how the knew this or where the information came from .
notorious1
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 08:45
Just 45 000 on peleenor fields? I really hoped that the number was greater. And how many corsair ships arrived there?
Nick_5
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 09:27
I always thought about 10,000 attacked Helm's Deep and anywhere from 200,00-250,000 attacked Minas Tirith.
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 19, 2005 09:37
The 200 000 - 250 000 number is from the films. There are less orcs on the Pelennor in the books.
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 20, 2005 10:21
You are aware of that Gondolin were about 100 times as big as tirith???? he had All his balrogs there he had All his dragons.
And there were hundreds of thousands of elves inn there.




Millions of orcs at the sack of Gondolin? I don't think there were that many. Maybe Morgoth had a few million orcs, all his armies combined but even that seems way too much to me. Id'd say there were up to a 100 000 at Gondolin, but probably less. But there were more Orcs surrounding the mountains to prevent any of the Gondolindrim from escaping. Maybe there were a few hundred thousand if you count all of those as well, but there were never a few million.

300 000 on the Pelennor fields...well, Remember that the combined forces of 5000-10 000 Gondorians (we don't know the exact number), 6000 Rohirrim and a few thousand soldiers from Lebennin won the battle. I don't think there were 300 000. I think a number close to 100 000 would be more accurate. Maybe even less.

[Edited on 18/2/2005 by Eärnur]
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 20, 2005 02:17
Well, Gondolin was a big city, and I'm sure Morgoth deployed large armies in the sack of Gondolin, but never millions. Remember that armies consisting of 10 000 soldiers were considered large in both the Sil (Turgon's army) and the LotR (Saruman's forces).

But how do you know that Gondolin was a hundred times bigger than Minas Tirith (I presume that you meant Minas Tirith when you said tirith)? Does Tolkien say anything about it in the HoME?

And how do you know that there were hundreds of thousands of Gondolindrim? It is possible of course, but Turgon sent 10 000 soldiers to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I'd estimate Gondolin's population at about 100 000, maybe a little more. Even if there were hundreds of thousands, Morgoth would never need millions of orcs to defeat Gondolin. Especially when he had Balrog's and Dragons, like you said.

The problem is just that we don't know for sure, 'cause Tolkien seldom wrote anything about the size of armies and the population numbers of all the realms. It's impossible for us to know for sure, but we can always do some educated guessing

Anyway, if there were hundreds of thousands of Gondolindrim, that would put Minas Tirith's population at a few thousand if Gondolin was a hundred times bigger. Doesn't that number seem a little low?

[Edited on 21/2/2005 by Eärnur]
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 21, 2005 01:03
If you read the unfinished tales you will se when Tuor walks through Gondolin that there are HUGE plains inside and the place were they train their armyes are BIG BIG BIG!!! and its also archers everywhere and reckon this. say it was 20 000 soldiers there and then you also have 20 000 women CA.
and then add the kids. what do you get?? HUGE! and remember in the war of the ring 10 000 was much more than in the 1st age. and if you read how strong Gondolin was i wouldnt belive it could be destroyed even if Morgoth himself came there. And they had a lot of strong guys like Tuor and Ecthelion. and the city was totally flooded after it was taken.
And as it is said in HoME book 2 when angbands armies come it was like one big black wave filled the plains around Gondolin

[Edited on 21/2/2005 by Fingolfin_Cw]
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 05:05
Yes, I've read the UT. I know that Gondolin was incredibly strong (those 7 gates are impressive) but if they have something like 20 000 soldiers, wouldn't a few hundred thousand orcs and a mob of Balrogs and Dragons be able to crush them easily? Remember that Morgoth's attack caught Gondolin off guard. The Gondolindrim hadn't prepared any defences or laid a strategy for the battle. They're were having a festival, and they were definitely not ready for battle.

Besides, a few hundred thousand orcs are enough to make one big black wave on the plains around Gondolin, don't you think?

Anyway, I think we've both made our points clear Fingolfin_Cw. I think there were a few hundred thousand orcs in and around Gondolin, and you think there were millions. I don't think we're going to get any further by discussing this endlessly Still, It's always interesting to hear what other people think. Tolkien leaves much to the induvidual's imagination.

Fingolfin_Cw, I think we know what we're going to ask Tolkien if hey came alive and we got the chance to ask him one question, don't we? We won't ask him any stupid questions about the Balrog's wings, who/what Tom Bombadil is, what happened to the entwives, wether Glorfindel in the LotR and Glorfindel of Gondolin are the same person, or wether orcs are immortal.
Nope, we'll ask him the exact number of orcs at the fall of Gondolin
Celedë_Anthaas
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 06:23
I have no idea how many orcs there were at the Fall of Gondolin, but according to BolT 2 there were hundreds of Balrogs:
yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds

Something is said about the size of Morgoth's army as well:
Then were the topmost opened about their middles and an innumerable host of the Orcs, the goblins of hatred, poured therefrom into the breach

Great was they battle, yet for all their valour the Gondothlim by reason of the might of ever increasing numbers were borne slowly backwards till the goblins held part of the northernmost city.

I wonder how many orcs there are in an innumerable host... Probably at lot

Personally, I think there were betwen 50.000-200.000 elves in Gondolin. Turgon sent 10.000 to the Nirnaeth, but of course some of them died.
Then Turgon took the counsel of of Húrin of Huor, and summoning all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people that could be gathered he retreated towards the Pass of Sirion

I think that Turgon's army at the Nirnaeth was about 1/3-1/2 of his entire army. Assuming that 5000 of Turgon's soldiers at the Nirnaeth survived and he sent one third of his army, there would be 25.000 soldiers in Gondolin when they got back, and at the Fall of Gondolin, 39 years after the Nirnaeth (according to the Encyclopedia of Arda), there must have been more soldiers. Turgon had prepared something:
He [Turgon] caused the watch and ward to be thrice strengthened at all points, and engines of war to be devised by his artificers and set upon the hill. Poisonous fires and hot liquids, arrows and great rocks, was he prepard to shoot down on any who would assail those gleaming walls


But that still doesn't really answer your question, does it?

[Edited on 22/2/2005 by Celedë_Anthaas]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 10:26
As for the Balrogs, Tolkien later decreased their number quite radically, but in the same made them more dreadful than the ones in BoLT. Unfortunately, he never rewrote the Fall of Gondolin properly, so we never get to know for sure how many of those new versions would have been in that battle.

[Edited on 22/2/2005 by Morwinyoniel]
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 10:33
Well we will never know but offcourse Turgon never sent whole of his army away. And i also read it were over a hundred balrogs. And Earnur your completley right thats the question we would ask! But i think there were more then a few 100 000 orcs. Since the plain of Gondolin were bigger than the pelenor fields.
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 01:21
But i think there were more then a few 100 000 orcs. Since the plain of Gondolin were bigger than the pelenor fields.


I wouldn't know. I'm not sure what the scale of the map of Beleriand is. Besides, Gondolin and Tumladen are so small on the Beleriand map, that it's impossible to measure the distance across, even if we knew the scale of the map. There may be some indications, as some distances in Beleriand are stated in some of Tolkien's writings, but I can't find any right now. :sleepy: I'm off to bed soon.

Are there any detailed maps of Gondolin and Tumladen? Maybe in the HoME...? Can't think of any map right now.
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 01:26
When Tuor escapes Gondolin they are on the othr side of the plains and they can almost not see Gondolin on the other side
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 01:46
The Pelennor was something like 30-50 km across I think (from Minas Tirith to the eastern part of Rammas Echor). Seems somewhat bigger than Tumladen to me. On normal, flat land, in clear weather, you can see about 10km far, which suggests that Tumladen would be about 10km across.

But we can't be sure of course. Maybe Tolkien himself didn't consider the distance either. He was always very good with details and making them fit, but I doubt that he gave much thought to the distance across Tumladen.
Fingolfin_Cw
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 22, 2005 01:52
Tip read HoME bolt2 there you get a bigger version than inn the one inn silma
notorious1
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 23, 2005 12:23
When you talk about the numbers of the great armies you must not forget the 300 hobbit archers in the battle of Fornost

How many soldiers were on that battle?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 23, 2005 11:41
The Pelennor was something like 30-50 km across I think (from Minas Tirith to the eastern part of Rammas Echor). Seems somewhat bigger than Tumladen to me. On normal, flat land, in clear weather, you can see about 10km far, which suggests that Tumladen would be about 10km across.

The only concrete estimates I've seen so far come from Karen Wynn Fonstad again; according to them, both Tumladen and Pelennor were 10-15 miles (16-24 km) across. Of course, we can never be certain, but these estimates sound rather realistic to me.
Earnur
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Post RE: the numbers of armies
on: February 27, 2005 01:22
I've measured the distance across the Pelennor fields in Barbara Strachey's "Journeys of Frodo." The distance from Minas Tirith to Osgiliath is about 16 miles (across the causeway, which runs in a straight line from Minas Tirith to Osgiliath). The distance across the causeway from M. Tirith to the gate in the Rammas Echor is about 13 miles. The area inside the Rammas has a roughly circular shape, with a diameter of about 12-14 miles. Minas Tirith is located in the South-eastern part of the Pelennor, which makes the distance to the Harlond (where Aragorn arrives with his ships) about 4 miles.

I was wrong in my last post. I thought, 'The distance from Minas Tirith to Minas Morgul is something like 80-100km (50-65 miles). Osgiliath is halfway between Morgul and Tirith, and 'cause the Pelennor runs almost right up to Osgiliath, I thought the Pelennor had to be something like 30-50km. I took a loser look at the ME map today, and found out that Osgiliath is not halfway between Minas Morgul and Tirith. Most of the Anduin valley is east of the river. Ah well, enough excuses... You were right Mowinyoniel

[Edited on 28/2/2005 by Eärnur]
cirdaneth
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Post Re: the numbers of armies
on: May 24, 2012 12:07
Oooh! This is really worth reading. I'm not an expert but it offers room for endless enjoyable argument.
RimmoldadTheWizard
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Post Re: the numbers of armies
on: May 24, 2012 08:24
I didn't read all, so if this is already asked, forgive me, but, what about the army of numenor against the Valar?
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