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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 24, 2007 12:21
Was the Battle worthwhile and could it have been won?

[Edited on 20/9/2007 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
The Battle was a foolish waste of lives caused by the sons of Feanor
4% (1)
Foolish- The Battle could not have been won wthout the help of Thingol and Melian
0% (0)
Foolish- The Battle could not have been won without the help of the Ainur
19% (5)
Noble- Even with no hope of victory, the Battle had to be fought
44% (1)
Noble- The battle could have been won , if not for the treachery of the later men
33% (9)
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 24, 2007 05:48
It's hard to choose, because it was both foolish and noble. Foolish because Morgoth was a foe beyond any of the Children of Ilúvatar; noble because it united the different peoples against a common enemy, and it might have ended in a more positive way - although not in total defeat of Morgoth - if the Easterlings hadn't betrayed Maedhros's army.
Dolwen
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 24, 2007 06:57
Tough decision but in the end I chose the last one. I believe that the battle may well have been won if the Easterlings hadn't betrayed the others. There are actually a number of things that went wrong and all added to the whole of the defeat. The betrayal of the Easterlings, all the forces of elves and men not being united, the dismembering of Gelmir, Morgoth getting word of the mustering early on etc. The elves and men had great forces in those days and had the right idea to try and put an end to Morgoth once and for all, instead of continuing to fight smaller battles forever. If not for all the mistakes and bad luck they likely would have succeeded.
Lomelindi_of_Moonlight
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 24, 2007 11:26
I had to vote that it was foolish, because utimately it was. They had the right idea and intention, but they were fighting an enemy that had more than just a huge army, they were up against Balrogs, traitors, werewolves, the works. Not to mention that even if their forces defeated Morgoth's armies, they would still have had to deal with Morgoth himself. I'm not sure how they expected to handle him, but they really needed the help of the Ainur to finish it. It was a very brave thing to try to accomplish, but they just couldn't do it on their own.
Ilandir
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 24, 2007 11:54
I chose the fourth one: Noble- Even with no hope of victory, the Battle had to be fought

Since I believe that apart from the defence of the free peoples it also caused Beren to flee and meet Luthien, which in turn gave birth to Earendil who saved the people from Morgoth's threat.

[Edited on 25/8/2007 by Ilandir]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 25, 2007 01:29
I agree with Ilandir. As Gandalf has said "Even the Wise cannot see all ends."
Almerúvë
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 26, 2007 09:25
That is a very hard choice indeed. I agree with Morwinyoniel, it was both foolish and noble. I think these two go together many times, in many battles. But I don't think they could defeat Morgoth without the help of the ainur. All what I think about it is allready said, so I'm not going to repeat it
Will_Belegon
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 29, 2007 09:19
I think the battle has to be fought... and that there is a moment when things almost turn and if not for the treachery of the lesser men, it may have been won. Certainly, if the forces of Fingon could have completed their intent to join with the sons of Feanor, the battle would have proceeded much differently.

Yet even so, the Elves of Nargothrond almost manage to ruin Melkor's intent.

In the end, the battle reaches a predictable end, but only after the Forces of the Eldar and the Edain almost manage to pull off a great upset victory.
Periantari
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: September 24, 2007 07:15
It's quite a hard question to answer and I don't think it can strictly be divided into the choices that are given.
As others have said, the Noldor had no chance against Morgoth if they had read correctly the prophecy (or curse) that the Maiar had given them. As most High Elven Kings deemed smart to do was to go into hiding ...
however, the battle was necessary for you can see that Morgoth would fight no matter what and to gather the strength in arms among men and elves were necessary.
It was a loss of life and it led to more awful events but i think the strategy was good until the Easterlings became part of Morgoth's plan of destruction and really killed the Eastern flank, separating two groups of elves....

This is an interesting question... will go back to the book for more comments.

I'm sooo glad CoH discussion is starting here too! TORN has an awesome one too but i'm so late going into there... this one just started it seems so i'm glad to lurk a bit and maybe comment too
Rhysenn
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: January 02, 2008 06:32
Even though the outlook was bleak, I think that one result of the battle was Melkor's increased fear of Turgon and Gondolin. And I think it was a signal to Melkor that the elves and men will not be taken easily, though Melkor is prideful of his power.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: January 03, 2008 01:17
I think that it was a mistake to try and tackle Morgoth without an alliance of all the forces available. A loss makes things even more dangerous for those that didn't participate.

With the battle won, Morgoth no longer has his borders watched and can now concentrate on finding Turgon's hiden Kingdom.
raina_alassë
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 07, 2008 06:44
Made my vote before I read what the rest wrote, and I noticed that I agreed with Ilandir.

I think that goes for real life too. Even if a battle cannot always be won, we are sometimes facing wars that anyway needs to be fought. And at least we can do serious harm to our enemy, thus helping those after us to get time to grow strong and overcome him. Sometimes, we live to see that actually happen...

"Even if a battle is lost, the war isn't."

(And if Fëanor hadn't made the stones, if the Noldor hadn't come to Arda, then Arda would have been under Morgoth and his creatures. Much bad came, yes, but from it rose something good. As I see it, it had to be done in order to save Arda. Just a pity that this was the way through which it was done...
*sighs deeply*)
~nólemë~
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 07, 2008 10:24
whee, thanks Raina for drawing my attention to this thread... I chose the last possibility. The battle was a necessity, otherwise the onslaught of Morgoth that was being prepared for a long time would have destroyed the realms one by one anyway. It was a brave, desperate deed as even if Morgoth's minions were all destroyed (IMHO unlikely), he himself was undefeatable by the Children of Eru, and would have soon started to breed new evil in Angband, so I imagine the victory - if there could be one- would end in yet another Siege of Angband at the best.

I chose the last possibility, but I disagree with that only the Men were to blame - like Dolwen says, there is a multitude of other factors, the folly of Orodreth and Thingol not the least of them- if the thought felt good to them that they won't send aid to the sons of Fëanor, and maybe because of the lack of their forces the battle could be lost and Morgoth would lay their lands waste... If personal revenge was more to them than their plainly last chance to give a decisive battle and turn the odds... I think they were fools, to hide in their realms sulking and as if hoping they would always remain hidden.

As for the other reasons, I completely agree with Dolwen.

Erm, Ilandir, Lúthien and Beren met *before* the Nirnaeth :/ And Eärendil didn't have anything to do with those two, probably you meant Elwing, or Huor's tale?
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
raina_alassë
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 09, 2008 11:16
My pleasure, Nólemë. And I agree with you that here the Nandor and the Sindar were indeed doing wrong (laying the blame on the kings as the responsible persons for this). I also think that neither of the kings fully understood the powers of Morgoth and the amounts of armies he actually possessed, nor that they fully understood his plans. They thought they'd actually be safe in their realms. (If I am wrong, I do blame the translation, as a whole lot of the Silmarillion is missing, as well as parts of the LotR.) All they could see, was that the Noldor - who were responsible for slaying their kinsmen, the Teleri - were asking for aid, and therefore gave none, and thinking that the Noldor exaggerated the threat and that the entire thing was only for some jewels. Simply said: they didn't see further than their own noses. Unfortunately, this is a common syndrome also among real people out there in our world. I guess this can be used to express the dangers of not seeing further than one's own nose - to let agony against a kinsman stand in the way of things that needs to be done. (Now, please do understand, I am not referring to anyone at CoE when I say "not seeing further than one's own nose"! But I think we have all met such people. For those who haven't: you are greatly blessed!)
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Post RE: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: August 09, 2008 01:14
I agree with you Raina, you put it quite fittingly. Thanks for pointing out the Nandor, although their help would have been more like symbolic- they weren't 'born to fight' so to say, and still lived in the painful memory of their king's death... I'd perhaps just point out that it was primarily due to what Celegorm and Curufin did in Nargothrond rather than because of the Kinslaying, that the two kingdoms refused to send aid. No wonder Thingol and Orodreth saw red, but I still think they should have seen farther, like you say.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Nrogara
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Post Re: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: March 18, 2012 05:30
The battle could have been won, yes. But it was way too risky. They were over-confident and underestimated Morgoth's power, as the book says. And as others have mentioned, what would they do when they got to Morgoth himself? I don't know how they should have done it. Like someone said, you can't just let Morgoth sit there and build up more power... IDK. It's a hard question. But I chose the first option.
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LegolasXXXXX
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Post Re: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: July 28, 2012 05:53
I chose the last option. If not for the treachery of men, the battle would have been won...even with the overconfident charge of the Noldor at the beginning of the battle. The help of Thingol and Melian would have been way more beneficial to the battle, and it would have sealed the victory, but one has to keep in mind, the Elves, Men, and Dwarves were fighting a losing war. The Elves were there without the permission of the Valar(Ainur), and they were fighting the mightiest of the Ainur, even though he was not part of them any longer. There was no hope, as black as that sounds, without the help of the Valar.
Lindarielwen, I hope that wherever you are it is incredible and filled with all the things that you love. Looking forward to our next meeting.
Eorrific
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Post Re: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: January 29, 2013 02:17
I think it was noble in intent, but foolish in preparation and execution.
If there were no betrayal of Men, I'd like to believe that the battle would still be lost, though the onslaught is likely to be less than it really was.
Grizzwald
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Post Re: Poll - The Battle of Unnumbered Tears- foolish or noble?
on: February 01, 2013 11:23
Noble. Fighting the evil forces of Morgoth for the good of middle earth. what could be better.
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