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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 28, 2010 02:14
Thank you atalante for these amazing questions

1. Tuor and Voronwë seem puppets of Ulmo. Why doesn't Ulmo just do these things himself?
Tuor also develops some kind of sea-longing: is this due to Ulmo? Is that why he feels so at home amongst the Elves?

2. What's the symbolism behind the seven great swan?

3. Why doesn't Turgon listen to Ulmo - is he more concerned for his people or for his city and Tirion that was lost? Does Turgon bring about his own downfall, and why? What does this remind you of?

4. Why did Maeglin turn to Morgoth? What is the significance of his death?

5. What kind of character is Idril? Who in the Sil does she remind you of?

6. Why does Morgoth not care about the one Silmaril he lost? How does he know in which way the oath of Fëanor will work to his advantage?

7. Why will the Valar not heed the request of Ulmo?

8 . Off-topic question;
If Tuor made it across the Sea and became sundered from the fate of men, wouldn't the same thing have happen to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam?


[Edited on 1/3/2010 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: January 31, 2012 11:03
Very good questions. I will access all the resources available(including The Silmarillion and the Book of UnfinshedTales) to come up with some answers.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 01, 2012 02:02
Great, We look forward to your responses!!
belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 03, 2012 10:05
1. Tuor and Voronwë seem puppets of Ulmo. Why doesn't Ulmo just do these things himself?
Tuor also develops some kind of sea-longing: is this due to Ulmo? Is that why he feels so at home amongst the Elves?

(A) Where Tuor is concerned in the first part of the question, Ulmo may have known about the words that Huor spoke to Turgon at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears so many years before.
A puppet of Ulmo no. For Tuor in all his yearnings and despair and the doings of great deeds longed to forsake the hardships that he faced, for he knew that the life of an outlaw was shortlived. In the book of unfinished tales we read that Ulmo gathered tidings from all that passed in Beleriand and every stream that flowed from Middle Earth to the Great Sea was to him a messenger. Ulmo knew well the plight of Tuor. We also read further that Tuor's fostered family Annael the elf and his people had indeed escape the enemy and came to Cirdan and told him all that happened and Cirdan told Ulmo We read again that Ulmo gave heed to the fates of the house of Hador and purposed that they should play a great part in his designs.

(B) Where Voronwe is concerned, Ulmo rescued Voronwe for such a purpose as this it was fate. Ulmo also spoke to Turgon the words "Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea" Also Voronwe knew that culture and language of that city.

(C) Why doesn't Ulmo do it himself. In speaking with Tuor, Ulmo spoke of how his power was diminishing through the poisoning and defiling of the waters by Melkor. Ulmo was not particularly fond of the land and loved the waters and would rather be there than at the council of the Valar. His city was in the waters. Ulmo spoke of the hope that lieth in Tuor that only Tuor could fulfil. Tuor would never have met Idril and so fulfil the prophecy spoken so long ago by his father. It wasn't Tuor's fault that Turgon did not listen to advice.

(D) It is said the Tuor may have being the first of all the men to reach the Great Sea. Tuor may have being influenced by the songs and stories spoken in the home of Annael. It became more apparent at his reaching the sea and his experience with Ulmo and Voronwe.

**This is in answer to the first question***

belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 03, 2012 11:26
2. What's the symbolism behind the seven great swan?

The only answer that i can come up with is that it may in some way relate to the seven Lords of the Valar?

Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Namo, Irmo and Tulkas.

Seven Queens?
Varda, Yavana, Nienna, Este, Vaire Vana and Nessa.


3. Why doesn't Turgon listen to Ulmo - is he more concerned for his people or for his city and Tirion that was lost? Does Turgon bring about his own downfall, and why? What does this remind you of?

(A) Despite all the evidence that Tuor was the one who would turn up in Gondolin as spoken by Ulmo, It would seem that the counsel of his trusted advisors took precedence over mortal man. We read that Maeglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, that Maeglin's word seem more weighty to the heart of the king. Also, Turgon had grown in pride concerning the kingdom of Gondolin which had almost become like Tirion itself in beauty, culture, wealth and building. Turgon bought about his, and the city of Gondolin's own downfall through bad advice. I do not think his people mattered not when he hemmed them in the way he did after Hurin was spotted nosing around the mountains.

It is just a case of the departure from Valinor in reverse.


4. Why did Maeglin turn to Morgoth? What is the significance of his death?

Maeglin went with a few of his folk outside the boundaries of the hills without the king knowing about it and this led to his capture by orcs and his taking to Angbang. The Silmarillion describes Maeglin as no weakling or craven but the torment by Morgoth lowered and weakened his spirits that he offered valuable information for his life. Maeglin had a rival for the hand of a fair maiden, Tuor was his name whom he had hatred for and this led to his treachery.

Maeglin had laid hands on Idril and Earendil and Tuor seeing this went to their aid, battling Maeglin and cast him over the wall. His grandfather Fingolfin, his mother Adrehel, and Maeglin all died violent deaths. Ulmo had purposed a great plan for Tuor and Maeglin was not part of the plan.



:wave:

[Edited on 4/2/2012 by belldoras]

[Edited on 4/2/2012 by belldoras]
belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 04, 2012 12:03
2. What's the symbolism behind the seven great swan?

The only answer that i can come up with is that it may in some way relate to the seven Lords of the Valar?

Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Namo, Irmo and Tulkas.

Seven Queens?
Varda, Yavana, Nienna, Este, Vaire Vana and Nessa.


Had to edit a couple of names here for the Lords of the Valar- Mandos and Lorien were places.

Namo and Irmo. Namo has control over the Halls of Mandos and Irmo is Lord of the Gardens of Lorien a place of refreshment


belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 04, 2012 03:52
5. What kind of character is Idril? Who in the Sil does she remind you of?

Any information about Idril is few and far between. Her mother was a Vanyarian, so inherited her hair and gentle nature from her and also an inner gift of being able to sense things that troubled her. Like the impending doom of Gondolin which led her to build a tunnel without tellng father as he would have revealed the details to Maeglin.

She was learned-scholar,musician, laws, history, languages probably took time out for equestrian duties.

As a Princess and Heir she had duties to perform at the courts of her father.

Very close to her father. The relationship with Maeglin was more as family.

Strength of character and strong willed. May have had suitors but turned them down. She would have known about the words of Huor and pondered them in her heart.

Her beauty was legendary, tall, and often walked barefooted(celebrindal), loved her people.

Through her actions she saved many of her people.

She reminds me a little of Melian and Galadriel.


6. Why does Morgoth not care about the one Silmaril he lost? How does he know in which way the oath of Fëanor will work to his advantage?

This one Silmaril caused a richochet effect for those who chose to pursue ownership of it. After taking the Silmaril from the stomach of Carcharoth it is taken to Doriath and stored away for safe keeping. After the visit from Hurin who brings the Nauglamir jewel out of Nargothrond, Thingol decides to put the Silmaril into the jewel and hires dwarves to do it for him. An argument occurs between dwarves and king over the ownership of the jewel and he is killed.

The Silmarillion is retrieved from the dwarves by Beren and the elves and then placed on Luthiens brow.

After Luthien and Beren's death the Silmaril is given to Dior. Doriath is invaded and Dior is killed by the Son's of Feanor. Dior's daughter Elwing escapes with the Silmaril with refugees from Doriath to the Grey Havens.

Maedhros and Maglor find out that the Silmaril is in the possession of Elwing and decides to attack the Grey Havens Elwing jumps into the sea and many lives are lost.

This is the many reasons why Morgoth never gave a second thought to the first Silmaril.



belldoras
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Post RE: III.23 Of Tuor and the Fall Of Gondolin
on: February 07, 2012 12:12
7. Why will the Valar not heed the request of Ulmo?

I had a bit of problems locating the source of this question and found this bit of information.

During the second exodus of elves from Middle Earth(Teleri and Olwe) a fretting Osse follows the host and calls to them and they hear his voice and beg Ulmo to stay their voyage in the Bay of Eldamar. Osse fastens the Ilse and roots the isle to the foundations of the seas, Ulmo being even more passionate about it.
Because of this turn of events the Teleri did not reach Aman. The Valar when they heard of Ulmo's actions were none too pleased about it.

So this bit of information may shed some light on why the Valar will not heed Ulmo's request.




The Lady Idril
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Post Question 7
on: July 16, 2015 10:55
Another answer to question 7 I have to offer is this:
It is said in "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin":

"But Manwe moved not; and of the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell? The wise have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon on their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Feanor perhaps even Manwe could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Feanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the Valar themselves had made." Hope that this helps!

[Edited on 07/17/2015 by The Lady Idril]
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The Lady Idril
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on: July 16, 2015 11:23
I have a question. Do you think that Maeglin wanted Idril more just because he "loved" her or because she was the only heir to the throne of Gondolin? The book seems to suggest both, but what do you think?
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: July 19, 2015 01:12
I think Maeglin loved Idril as truly as he was capable of, at least until his love turned to bitterness. In the Silmarillion, the first mention of Maeglin's attraction for Idril does not tie his feelings to her status but rather to the beauties and wonders of Gondolin.

"but thereafter he stood silent and watchful, for the bliss and splendour of Gondolin surpassed all that he had imagined from the tales of his mother, and he was amazed by the strength of the city and the hosts of its people, and the many things strange and beautiful that he beheld. Yet to none where his eyes more often drawn than to Idril the King's daughter, who sat beside him; for she was golden as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred, and she seemed to him as the sun from which all the King's hall drew its light." -Of Maeglin


Then the chapter concludes
"he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope."
Since marriage between first cousins was forbidden among the Eldar, marrying Idril would never have been a socially acceptable way to gain power whether or not Maeglin wanted the throne.

So my personal feeling is that when young Maeglin entered Gondolin he was totally overwhelmed. He had a isolated childhood raised on his mother's hero tales, forbidden to walk in daylight, dreaming of adventure and glory. Having known few Elves in his short life, let alone golden haired girls, his life was shockingly altered as he entered Elven society and the sun lit world. I think amid all the overwhelming splendor, Idril stood out as an embodiment of all that was new, promising and glorious to the child of the twilight. I think Maeglin fell in love with Idril before he fully comprehended who she was. Lady Idril, thank you for giving me an excuse to talk about one of my favorite characters!
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Elthir
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on: July 19, 2015 09:40
If Tuor made it across the Sea and became sundered from the fate of men, wouldn't the same thing have happen to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam?


But crossing into the West Over Sea did not change one's fate, nor give one the choice of kindred.

But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.


And if considered certainly true, the fate of Tuor is characterized as yet another exception.

Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and "it is supposed" (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited "immortality": an exception either way.

JRRT, letter 153


[Edited on 07/22/2015 by Elthir]
The Lady Idril
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on: July 20, 2015 12:56
Elfeawen Lomiondil-
Thanks for your response! After reading the quotes sited I totally agree with you. It would seem as though Maeglin did actually "love" Idril (or what she stood for), but when she rejected him he became bitter. I found in "Of Maeglin" it says:

"But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power. Thus it was in Gondolin; and amid all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown."
The Lady Idril, Princess of Gondolin, Este Realm Member, www.loveroflembas.blogspot.com
The Lady Idril
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on: July 23, 2015 09:33
When I think of the significance of the seven swans, the first thing I think of are the Teleri's ships. The burning of the Teleri's ships is the embodiment of the Noldor's wrongdoing (the kinslaying). Tuor's mission is to help the people of Gondolin and remind them that they are still under the Doom of the Noldor. It would seem fitting that the swans appear to remind Tuor of his mission.

Next is the matter of the number. What other things in The Silmarillion are represented by the number seven? The first thing that came to my mind was the Sons of Feanor. Could it be this is another representation of the Noldor's wrongdoing (the oath)? There are also seven Vala kings (excluding Melkor) and seven Vala queens. Could this represent that the message he is bringing is from the Valar? This last choice seems unlikely because only Ulmo is sending the message but still, what would it mean?

I guess I don't really have any concrete answers, only speculation. I think there must be a lot of symbolism here, but it's hard for me to discern what it is!
The Lady Idril, Princess of Gondolin, Este Realm Member, www.loveroflembas.blogspot.com
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: July 26, 2015 12:45
Question No.5: What kind of person is Idril?

To the list of traits Belldoras supplied above, I add that Idril could use a sword if she had to and may have been quite skilled at it. I found this in the only complete account of the fall of Gondolin, in The Book of Lost Tales. Idril led a strikeforce to gather the wounded and defenseless, nor might she be "dissuaded" from using a sword. Although she succeeded in getting many Elves to the secret escape tunnel, all the rescuers with her were killed except one. From this I deduce that she must have been a skilled fighter to stay alive.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
The Lady Idril
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on: August 10, 2015 04:50
What is the significance of Maeglin dying in the same way as his father? His father foretold that it would occur, and it did, but why? Maeglin and his father had completely different reasons for their death.

Also, what do you think about the passage "and he smote the mountains three times ere he pitched into the flames"? Is it just to show he died brutally, or is there significance relating to the number three?

Thirdly, when Eol was thrown off of the walls of the city, Idril was deeply bothered even though he had murdered his own wife, but when Maeglin was thrown off it never states that she was upset. Why?

Finally, is Maeglin considered a high-elf or not? I would think that because of his mixed parents (Caliquendi and Moriquendi) he would not be a high-elf, but I am not sure.
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Menelgalad
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on: February 22, 2017 01:45
The last question: I think the same immortality would come to the three hobbits, because the undying land IS undying, and I suppose that it'll keep people from dying of age. (Not from an unnatural death, though. Just look at Finwë and some other Elves who died in the kin-strife.)
Gandolorin
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on: February 23, 2017 08:47
Well, first of all, we do not know if Bilbo, Frodo and later Sam "only" came to Tol Eressëa, or to Valinor itself. And when you write "... because the undying land IS undying ..." you seem to be making the same mistake that Ar-Pharazôn "the Golden", last and doomed ruler of Númenor, made in listening to the lies of Sauron. The undying lands are not called so because they impart immortality on the Valar and Maiar living there. Totally the contrary, they are called so because those by nature immortal, the Valar and Maiar, live there. The undying lands might have something of a One Ring effect on those not by nature immortal, like the three Hobbits or Gimli, certainly not turning them into Gollums, but there is what Bilbo tells Gandalf in FoTR, chapter 1 "A long-expected Party":

"I am old, Gandalf. I don't look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed!" he snorted. Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can't be right. ..."
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Elthir
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on: February 24, 2017 11:49
"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to "pass away": no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of "Arda Unmarred", the Earth unspoiled by evil."

JRRT, letter 246, 1963


To me it's clear, from statements like this and others, that mortals in the Undying Lands must die. Tolkien also notes that their lives are not extended (in these two citations, the italicized words are Tolkien's own emphasis]...

"The Valar were not only forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life span."

JRRT, Aman And Mortal Men


Tolkien again explains [in letter 325, 1971] that the mortals allowed in Aman were in purgatory, but one of peace and healing, and that they would have to die, but could do so as Aragorn did, that is, die at their own desire and of free will. And as noted in the thread, statements from the Akallabeth echo part of the idea, where the Elves instruct the Numenoreans that: "For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land;..."

And in the fuller text of Aman And Mortal Men [published in Morgoth's Ring], the comparison of Men's lives to "moths" as found in the Akallabeth is also explained, informing the reader that mortal lives are not lengthened in Aman, nor shortened -- they will just seem short by comparison to the land and its peoples -- taking into account the full life of a Man who, in theory, is born in Aman, and lived his whole life there...

... thus not the same scenario as with Frodo and Bilbo, in any case.

[Edited on 02/25/2017 by Elthir]
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