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tarcolan
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Post Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 18, 2011 12:24
It seems that Arwen died of grief shortly after Aragorn's death, so did her mortality really matter in the end?
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Elthir
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 19, 2011 09:36
Well, if Elf-fated she would/could have been restored to bodily life and lived with her parents in Aman for example.

She would have been bound to the World until it ended, which it hasn't yet.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 19, 2011 11:42
Sorry if I'm being dense but I thought Luthien was the only Elf who had truly died and gone beyond the confines of the world. Are you saying that Arwen would have to stay in the Halls of Mandos for the duration?
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Elthir
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 19, 2011 04:37
I'm noting a significant way in which Arwen's choice mattered, as she, like Luthien, was freed from deathlessness. Above I just noted it by looking at the other side of the coin -- that is, if she had chosen an Elven-fate.

'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights'

JRRT, letter No 345


This may seem like Tolkien splitting hairs, since Arwen was 'Elvish-enough' in ways, but technically she wasn't an Elf. She too shared Luthien's fate, although Arwen and her brothers were given the choice of fate in any case (Arwen had a choice before her even if she had never met Aragorn).
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 21, 2011 08:45
Physiologically Arwen was of elf-kind because of her father's choice, so she had a life-span of several millenia and could not die of disease or old age. So her choice of mortality did not concern her body but the destination of her spirit after death. She had, in fact four choices altogether ... to sail to the undying lands, to remain in Middle-Earth and fade, to die an elf-death and rest temporarily in Mandos, or to relinquish her elf-status and while dying an elf-death, commit her spirit to the fate of Men, whatever that might be.

Elf-death, can only happen in two ways, however; to be slain; or to die of grief. Now, getting slain would have been difficult, and to do it herself would have been abhorrent, so the only way she could follow Aragorn was to allow her grief to run its course.
Elthir
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 21, 2011 04:38
I think Arwen was Half-elven (and thus default mortal-fated without the choice), just as her father was, since they both had a measure of mortal blood as well as Elvish.

But since the choice was extended to Elrond's children, and appears tied to the time of Elrond's sailing, Arwen and her brothers must receive the longevity and health of the Elves or they would die before the appointed time.

Arwen also had Elven-beauty and thought like an Elf (understandable given that she lived like one), and was even Elvish enough to be accounted in the noted Unions of Edain and Eldar; but as Tolkien notes, she was not an Elf.

Elves don't (normally) have mortal blood or get to choose to escape the world.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 22, 2011 10:05
It seems a bit unfair, she only had 3/16ths mortal blood by my calculation. It's as though an elf gets infected however little they have.
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Elthir
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: October 22, 2011 10:43
Admittedly, with respect to part of my idea, I'm going by a statement from the mid to later 1930s, from Tolkien's Quenta Silmarillion (not used in the 1977 Silmarillion)...

... that all those of mortal blood, in whatever measure, are mortal, unless other doom is granted to them. If this held, Arwen and her brothers were default mortal-fated -- but other Doom was granted to them of course, in any case -- by reason of the choice.



[Edited on 22/10/2011 by Elthir]
Rulea
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: November 22, 2011 01:42
How could Arwen still be considered half-elf if Elrond had married Celebrian? Wouldn't that make her full elf with some mortal blood?
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arvegil
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: November 22, 2011 02:32
How could Arwen still be considered half-elf if Elrond had married Celebrian? Wouldn't that make her full elf with some mortal blood?


"Half-Elf" describes anyone who was part Elf and part Human. Elwing, for instance, was technically 1/4 Human, but was also given the choice of the Half-Elven.

[Edited on 23/11/2011 by arvegil]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: November 22, 2011 06:37
Arwen had the right to sail into the West which meant to me that she was considered an elf.
When she passed, to Frodo, her place on a ship to the West did she also automatically give up her immortality?
Elthir
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: November 23, 2011 09:21
Technically I would say Arwen had the right to choose an Elvish fate, and so pass Oversea, which is not quite the same thing as being an Elf, even if she was considered 'Elvish' in various ways. Again I think she gave up her right to immortality, which is why JRRT can explain...

'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights'

JRRT, letter No 345


Arwen made her choice when she and Aragorn plighted their troth in Lorien -- she renounced the Twilight, and Elrond was made aware of it -- still I think it was under condition at this point, for if Aragorn had been slain for example, Arwen need not have chosen a mortal fate -- it was made, after all, with the idea that she would hopefully one day cleave to Aragorn as his wife.


'Elrohir, Elladan: these names, given to his sons by Elrond, refer to the fact that they were 'half-elven' (III 314): they had mortal as well as Elvish ancestors on both sides;...'

JRRT, Letters



Their names refer to their half-elven status. The word half need not refer to exact ratios in my opinion, but the whole term is a way to note the notable, in a sense, as unions between Elves and Men were quite rare in Tolkien's world.

In other words the term isn't meant to be scientific in my opinion, but meant to refer to a being of mixed heritage -- especially considering the two kinds of beings involved have very different relationships to the world and its time -- Men leaving it after a (relatively) brief time, Elves unable to leave it even upon being slain -- the exact measure would hardly seem to be the point, in my opinion.

[Edited on 23/11/2011 by Elthir]
Makil
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: February 21, 2012 08:13
I had allways thought that Elrond chose to be Elf when given the choice(as HalfElven) and this choice was accorded to his children.
They all chose the mortal life.
As Elthir said Arwen chose the doom of men when she betrouthed herself to Aragorn at Caras Galahdon.
Further in Ap.A pp375 we see 'As he came walking towards her at Caras Galadhon laden with frowers of gold, her Choice was made and her DOOM was SEALED'.
I allways thought this was thier version of a wedding. Was there a later ceremony? I forget.
I've never read that a ride on the ship into the West was something Arwen could give away to someone else.
The folks in The Tolkien Companion theorise that all of the Elvin immortality in Middle Earth was held together by the power of Elrond and Galadriel and when they left it was gone. They don't site where they got this,and there were Elves in Middle Earth before Elrond and Galadrial arrivived. Just food for thought.
Makil
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Post RE: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: February 21, 2012 09:08
My Mistake on further reading They do marry midsummer after fall of Sauron.
and in 'Many Partings' Arwen gives her place on the ship to Froo.

Looks like I'll just have to read the whole saga again, just in case I missed anything else. (;
RiverWoman
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Post Re: Would Arwen have died anyway?
on: March 06, 2012 03:59
Makil, I've been reading the whole saga over and over for 40 years, and I still keep finding new things - partly because as I've grown older different things are important to me and catch my attention. I've always assumed that Arwen's brothers lived as elves, and that while they remained in Middle Earth after their father left they did eventually sail into the West. Hmm, maybe I need to give it another read-through (although I last read it only a year ago, and usually I let it rest for several years between readings, just to keep it fresh. I did know one woman who would read it through and then immediately start over at the beginning, it was the only thing she read at all in later life, the way some people do with the Bible.
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