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Dwarflord
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Post Galadriel and Gandalf
on: July 12, 2013 01:37
Hi

I am a great fan of Tolkien's book and PJ's films.
However, there are many changes Peter has made in the films that I really think are unnecessary.

For example, after wathing the Hobbit, I am a little worried that there will be additional scenes with Galadrien "in the field". When she says to Gandalf, that when he needs her, she will come (or be there)....

Say it isn't so!! please!!



[Edited on 07/12/2013 by Dwarflord]
tarcolan
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on: July 12, 2013 02:36
Hopefully she'll just be there 'in spirit' as she was with Frodo. Anyway Gandalf isn't supposed to be in the story now until the end. Hmm, it is a bit worrying isn't it?
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Dwarflord
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on: July 12, 2013 02:47
It is.

Especially because of the fact that there are so many additional things that can be put into the film, without the need to make things up.

I also hope she'll be there in spirit!

And the White Orc... after seeing the trailer of the second movie... well, he'll be there a lot. And in the end Thorin will kill him, I'm sure.

[Edited on 07/12/2013 by Dwarflord]
findemaxam48
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on: July 16, 2013 03:43
Yeah, I hope Galadriel will be there only metaphorically. It would be sort of a mistake on PJs part if she is there so much when it was never written.
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Lindarielwen
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on: July 18, 2013 06:03
For me, I was delighted to see Galadriel in The Hobbit and hope to see her in the remaining 2 movies. Galadriel and the White Council are mentioned in Appendix A part III titled Durin's Folk. Peter Jackson suggested we read that chapter to better understand the backstory and also to learn of the history between Thorin and Azog.
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findemaxam48
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on: July 18, 2013 11:49
Thanks, Lin! Will do
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Bartimaeus
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on: July 30, 2013 09:50
I like Galadriel... But I'm not sure she fits in here. Not in the Hobbit. Or Leggy for that matter




[Edited on 07/30/2013 by Bartimaeus]
Cillendor
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on: July 30, 2013 04:37
Of course she'll be in the next movies. I'm guessing we'll see the White Council convene again in DOS, and they're going to fight Sauron and destroy Dol Guldur in TABA.
tarcolan
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on: August 01, 2013 05:16
Well yes Bartimaeus, Galadriel was not in the book but she was definitely 'in the loop' (as they insist on saying). That whole scene was poor though, and did her no justice. I am eager to edit the movies into some acceptable form, removing much of the Hollywood dross. It could have been such a good film.

I truly hope that Galadriel does not take up arms as this would be against what Tolkien wrote in UT "...incapable of punitive action".
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findemaxam48
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on: August 04, 2013 04:18
Yes, thats what I mean about a mistake on PJ's part. Material that goes against tolkiens own works, especially that which is clearly defined.
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Ilandir
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on: August 06, 2013 01:46
I didn't mind Galadriel at all - what I *did* feel lacked was the power of Gandalf as a Maiar. The whole White Council seemed to be under the command of an Elf-Queen; even Saruman had to "obey" her orders and be silent.

Other than that, I thought that whole sequence was fabulously made.
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cirdaneth
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on: August 06, 2013 02:25
Well, what Saruman doesn't realise is that he is in the presence of all three elven rings. He may know about two of them but not Gandalf, who is playing his cards close to his chest and not letting on he has one. Saruman may sense that a power is present that he cannot identify. Having closed his own telepathic channels to hide the fact he is up to no good, he is unaware of the cross-talk/think going on over his head. Galadriel not only has a ring but is a full elf, born in Aman, and has been in ME longer than the wizards and from before Elrond was born, so she has more facts at her finger-tips. She was there.
tarcolan
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on: August 06, 2013 06:03
I think Saruman already knew that Gandalf was the keeper of Narya (UT, 'The Istari'), this being the reason he disliked Gandalf. I imagine he also suspected that Galadriel held another of the Three.
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cirdaneth
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on: August 07, 2013 01:47
Tolkien says somewhere that the whereabouts of the three rings was known only to those who held(or had held)them. He may well have suspected but could not know.

EDIT: Ah! Just rereading The Istari and you are right. Saruman became 'aware' of the gift of Narya to Gandalf. I shall read on (as I eat my breakfast) and make further comment later.

[Edited on 08/07/2013 by cirdaneth]
Elthir
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on: August 07, 2013 06:25
'Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But in the end...' Appendix B


This description then notes the original guardians, but in my opinion the meaning here should include Gandalf.

The reason Saruman disliked Gandalf according to other texts has to do with Saruman soon becoming jealous of Gandalf, and knowing in his heart that Mithrandir had the greater strength and the greater influence upon the dwellers of Middle-earth.

I don't recall anything being said of his knowledge of Narya here, although maybe I missed it [see The Hunt for The Ring, Unfinished Tales].


In any case, the Istari essay was written in 1954, which precedes the publication [at least] of the above citation from Appendix B.

Also it would seem a bit odd to me that Saruman knew about Narya when he imprisoned Gandalf, but again this is seemingly not the case anyway, according to The Return of the King.

[Edited on 08/07/2013 by Elthir]
tarcolan
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on: August 07, 2013 04:44
Sorry Elthir, I should know by now to include references.CT includes the Appendix B passage about the Istari and then goes on to summarise other notable parts which were not included:
Unfinished Tales: The Istari-
Saruman's knowledge that Gandalf possessed the Red Ring, and his jealousy
As many of the other facts mentioned are unarguable I would suggest that this passage was left out of the Appendix for reasons of space rather than being inaccurate. I suppose the jealousy may not refer to Narya. The fact that it contradicts the other statement in the Appendix is a problem though, but they are at least contemporaneous.
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Elthir
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on: August 08, 2013 07:14
Hmm, Christopher Tolkien does note that certain information [including Saruman's knowledge of Narya] 'does not appear' in The Lord of the Rings -- but I note too that he does not quote the entire headnote to Appendix B, and so does not quote the section I cited above, nor, at least here, note the seeming contradiction.

Also the essay on the Istari was not part of a draft text for Appendix B, not 'officially' at least -- not that you said otherwise. It was written as an entry for a proposed index to The Lord of the Rings, but it became an entry that went long and turned into an essay.

Tolkien might have used it as a draft for Appendix B, arguably, but looking at the actual drafts of Appendix B, we can first note that the earlier headnote to the Tale of Years of the Third Age did not include anything about the wizards -- as the information about them was included under an entry for a specific year.

Now the version of The Tale of Years that Tolkien wanted and submitted for publication was much longer, but his publishers advised that a:

'... considerable reduction be made in the accounts of events already told in The Lord of the Rings, and a somewhat more staccato style be adopted (make less of a narrative of the events of the Third Age)'

Commentary, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, with respect to The Tale of Years of the Third Age


Tolkien did this, and moved the fuller Istari information from the list of years to the headnote, while generally speaking, the entries for the years were shortened.

But when Tolkien moves the information on the Istari to the headnote -- he actually adds the section about the guardianship of the Three and the description of Cirdan's giving of Narya to Gandalf -- as before it did not include this.

Plus it would take but a sentence or two to convey that Saruman was an exception to knowing who possessed one of the Three, perhaps even in a footnote; but again if that were true 'Saruman Ring-maker' would have let Gandalf keep Narya in Isengard. Not impossible I guess, but I don't think this was the earlier idea [see below].

I think Tolkien was fishing about for something to help explain Saruman's attitude toward Gandalf, and at the time of writing this entry at least, thought perhaps Saruman should find out about Gandalf and Narya. I also think JRRT subsequently rejected this, going with an earlier notion.

For another comparison: some often quote The Istari to note that the number of the Order of Wizards was unknown, but that the chiefs were five. But Appendix B merely relates of the order '[of whom it is said were five]' [agrees with Saruman's outburst in the text itself]...

... and in my opinion each idea took little enough writing to convey, and as far as I'm aware, in all subsequent references to the Istari there are said to be five, with the easy implication that five refers to all of them.

Tolkien himself never published The Istari of course, nor did he feel bound by it; well, if he remembered everything within it that is. And for example, in a letter written after 1954 JRRT doubted that the other two wizards had colours, which speaks against the 'sea blue' description and the Blue Wizards of The Istari essay. Here [so far] I can locate no later references to the colour blue -- none later than the letter where Tolkien doubts they had distinctive colours I mean.

I note also Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:

'... but not until the time came for him [Gandalf] to depart was it known that he had long guarded the Red Ring of Fire.'


This text was in existence by 1948, and I think this was the idea Tolkien landed on again for ultimate publication. Of course it can't be all inclusive as Cirdan would know for example, but that is a readily obvious exception given the full context of both Appendix B and Of The Rings Of Power.

My opinion anyway

[Edited on 08/08/2013 by Elthir]
tarcolan
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on: August 08, 2013 03:29
You would think I'd have learned by now, eh Elthir? Ho hum.
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