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Eregwen_Rincauthiel
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Post How far is it to Valinor?
on: April 19, 2014 12:45
Hello all,

When Earendil the Mariner sailed from Middle Earth to Valinor, how long did it take him? A couple of weeks? Several months? How far is the distance between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands?

I've been working on a fan-fiction of the Earendil story, and I'm trying to make it as accurate as possible. The distance he had to cross and the time it took him to do it are two important details that I have not been able to confirm. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Eregwen
tarcolan
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on: April 19, 2014 04:54
Hi Eregwen. It is roughly 2800 - 3000 miles from the Bay of Balar to the Bay of Eldamar according to the first map in the Fonstad atlas. Earendil could have done the journey in two or three weeks with a constant north-easterly wind. It depends whether the Valar were aiding him or not. I don't know if Tolkien stated anywhere how long it took.

If the weather patterns were similar to our own Atlantic winds then he would have sailed south first to pick up the trade winds. These are my first thoughts about it, others will also comment so keep watching...
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Eregwen_Rincauthiel
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on: April 21, 2014 12:22
Thanks, tarcolan! This is enough for me to work on for now. If anyone else has any thoughts, please share them!

At the moment, I'm working under the assumption that the Valar were neither aiding nor hindering Earendil's voyage. My guess is they would have assumed that Earendil wouldn't be able to make it past the enchanted islands, so they would be pretty indifferent to his voyage.
Elthir
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on: April 21, 2014 07:32
I'm not sure it's possible to know. Maybe leave things vague, if so?

The dates we have for Feanor's sailing from Valinor to Middle-earth are given in Valinorean Years not Sun Years, and these 'years' are really almost ten years long, so all we know is that in year 1497 Feanor stole the ships and landed in Middle-earth in the same year*

And when Feanor sailed: 'And since the sea was there narrow, steering east and somewhat south he passed over without loss...'


With respect to Earendil, according to The Tales of Years** text C, Earendil began his voyages in the year 534, and he comes to Valinor 8 years later in 542. But this is due, of course, to his many adventures 'in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and in many isles.'

Earendil had turned back towards Beleriand, but not as switly as he desired, and was still at Sea when Elwing came to him... and then, after some time, they make it to Valinor.

With respect to KW Fonstad's Atlas, while I generally recommend it, it's not a primary source of course [not that anyone said it was] and even its author admits to necessary speculation in some areas, with some conclusions based on little enough evidence. That said I don't have my copy of KWF's Atlas any longer, so I can't say just what this particular distance is based on.

But as a general example of how 'misty' things can get, Tolkien himself didn't even make clear enough the geography of the far north, so much so that even Christopher Tolkien left it out of his Silmarillion map.

________

*although it was said: '... but some seven years after in the later reckoning of time' which I assume means Feanor arrived 7 Sun Years after Thingol's victory over the orcs in Beleriand [which event is found in the entry for 1497 according to the Grey Annals, before the reference to the arrival of Feanor], although Cirdan had been driven to the sea.

Or perhaps 7 years after Morgoth began this assault, which reference begins this entry in GA.

**the textual history of this document is rather confused and hard to easily describe, but in texts A, B, C [D does not extend far enough for Earendil's voyages] we have Earendil sailing about for years in any case, again, given his many adventures before Elwing found him with the Silmaril.

[Edited on 04/21/2014 by Elthir]
tarcolan
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on: April 21, 2014 12:37
I forgot that at this time the world was still flat (contentious). There would not be circular low and high pressure regions as these are due to the rotation of the earth. In fact warm air in the south would rise and cold air in the north would sink and move south. This would create prevailing northerly winds which would take all ships south, assuming that tacking had not been discovered at this time.

This is Middle Earth though so normal physics can be overridden, in this case by Manwe who was in charge of wind.
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Gandolorin
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on: April 22, 2014 01:17
I would strongly assume that the Teleri, the greatest sailors bar none, would have known about tacking (just imagine them taking part in the America's Cup - my guess is that all of the sponsors for the Hildor boats would be very much not amused!).
Besides, the Númenoreans, greatest sailors among men, had no problems sailing to Middle-Earth and back.
And not to forget, Tuor, Eärendil's father, met Voronwë, who sailed on the last ship (of several) which Turgon of Gondolin sent West to seek aid from the Valar. These ships, if I remember correctly, always hat to contend with contrary winds (not solely, fogs and other stuff also played a role). Contrary would mean winds out of the West, so if round-earth physics would normally be valid in the Second-Age flat earth, then Manwë's intervention seems very likely.
Eärendil managed to overcome all the barriers to Valinor (more than just the contrary winds) due to his possession on one of the Silmarils.
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