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Figwit
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Post Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: May 30, 2003 08:09
first of all, a little note on why I took these two together: I really wanted to include the spoiling, but it's too small a scene to devote an entire thread to and I don't want to cram up the Movies Forum with my posts... so, although this scene comes a little later in the movie (it's with the trees that are being pulled down), you can discuss it here...

you can find the screencaps of Treason here and of the Spoiling here.

and, for the occasion, a slightly different poll question!

When, in the Treason Of Isengard-sequence, did you realise Saruman was evil?

[This because I noticed that some people were in my opinion rather late, and I wondered if it's a common things or it just runs in my family?]



[Edited on 31/5/2003 by Figwit]
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: May 30, 2003 09:01
I voted for when I first saw Saruman, but not because it was Christopher Lee *admits to not knowing who he was then!*. His voice over struck me as arrogant and dark and I instantly disliked him. Then a little later when Gandalf says that the Ring had been in the Shire the whole time and Saruman says "Yet you did not have the wit to see it". That is not a how a figure of power for good addresses his closest subordinate. That's when I realised something was wrong at least. I didn't get the extent of the evil until he told Gandalf, but then that's a lot to take in in one go!

I love the intricate shifts of power in this scene. At the beginning (for me) there was one power that I trusted implicitly and one that I was suspicious of, but the trustworthy one was submissive. In the garden you start to see that things really are wrong between these two wizards, Saruman's derision making you wonder why Gandalf was so happy to see him at first.

Then they go into Saruman's stiflingly cluttered chamber and it starts to get more edgy. In the confined setting it feels like there's something bubbling under the surface like Cabin Fever and this errupts into the wide space of the throne room which is now almost like a temple with the Palantir as the altar and the evil is outright.

The fight annoys me just a teensy bit. I know PJ doesn't like the idea of flashy, Harry Potter-esque magic and wanted the fight to be as physical as possible, but some of the moves they pull look totally pointless, especially the break-dancing bit. I don't know, it just gets my goat.

The Spoiling is brilliantly symbolic. Saruman is now in submission to a darker power and the uprooting of the trees shows him ripping up and parting with his past. Gandalf is captured and weakened but not giving up.
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Nevthónîel
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: May 31, 2003 02:21
I also voted for when I first saw Saruman. Both because I recognized Christopher Lee and he's just looking evil. I hate his voice also. And that black eyes. When i sat there in the cinema, and Gandalf followed Saruman into his room I said to myself: Go back, turn around and walk away, Gandalf. Of course he didn't.
Eothain222
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: May 31, 2003 08:54
I liked the bit when you first see Saruman (he's voice over as Gandalf approaches Isengard) but the best bit is when he tries to convince Gandalf to join him and Sauron and the ensuing fight. Oooo... he's so EVIL!
Figwit
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 01, 2003 02:17
"White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light broken."
"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."

~ Gandalf at the Council Of Elrond, LOTR 2 II



To me, one of the things I was very worried about, was the council scene. It's my favourite part of the book because of the way it weaves an intricate web of relevant and irrelevant information, of personal stories and the great tide of history, of character introduction and future plot devices. [So, when we get to that scene.... aaaaah, lengthy will not apply to my post then ]
One of the most important characters who is introduced to us in the council scene is Saruman the White; or Saruman of Many Colours, as he prefers to call himself. I was slightly disappointed to find that Radagast wasn't in the movie, but the sheer presence of Saruman was more than enough to compensate for that.

First of all: the casting... was... amazing. I never had a distinct picture of Saruman (not like I had of Boromir or Galadriel for instance), but I knew he would be very old and at the same time have the strength of youth over him; as if the mask of age was just another tool of deception. He would be the exact opposite of Galadriel, who had to be very young but feel old and weary.
The moment I heard that eerie voice say 'The hour is late and Gandalf the Grey rides to Isengard seeking my council.' my hair just stood on end. I hadn't seen that many films with Christopher Lee in it (well, James Bond and a couple of Hammer Horror movies... lovely things those), so I had no idea what he'd be like but I recognised the voice and it was like a jolt of electricity.

Lee has the Look: he's so old one would be tempted to call him ancient yet he oozes power, strength, determination... youth. Even without the Dracula teeth he looks creepy, but simply because of the contrasting forces at work within him: Gandalf speaks about - and to - him with great respect yet the man is plain arrogant! His robes and hair are white, but the tower he lives in is as black as coal.
He also resembles Orthanc a bit: he is tall and slim, and a distinct presence in the landscape or room.
And his robe: wow! I was a bit disappointed that it didn't have the many colours of Book Saruman, but it looked so worn and rich at the same time. Not like lost glory but more like an old cathedral that you can't help but admire, even if it's lost some of its beauty.

The interaction between the two wizards was just great, and I especially liked it when Gandalf covered the Palantír again and touching it, caught a glimpse of the Eye, whilst Saruman just sits there on his throne obviously thinking Gandalf's pretty thick for fearing the seeing-stone... It's the first time Gandalf seems suspicious, and I liked the way that even then he seems to be in doubt: too much respect for this leader of his order seems to interfere with his judgement, because he should have realised a lot earlier. It also shows how Gandalf first thinks the best of people, whilst Saruman first thinks the worst ('Your love of the halfling's leaves...').

As for the fight: I loved it. I was very happy to see it fought out in a physical way, because of two reasons.
First of all, Tolkien's wizards aren't 'conjurers of cheap tricks'. There power lies elsewhere: in wisdom, in knowing things that lie beyond a mere mortal's grasp, in understanding the secrets of the natural living world. {The use of gunpowder is a good example of that: it is a technology immediately derived from the natural, and can be used for good (Gandalf's fireworks) or evil (Saruman's bomb).}
I would have hated to see them fight each other with snakes coming out of walls or lights flashing from staffs.
And second, I liked how it showed their exceptional strength. Getting smacked around like that, I doubt any of the 'heroes' in the book would have been as wide awake as Gandalf was... It shows that they're not mere mortals, despite their looks, that there is great strength and power in them which cannot be compared to the strength of men or even beasts: they are in a way 'supernatural', though their magic is not.

I also enjoyed the Spoiling for two reasons (yeah, I'm a two reason kinda girl).
There's this great shot of Saruman after he used the palantír, and it looks like he's shivering of cold. He just sits there, his hair covering his face, with his arms around his chest as if cradling himself. This is a very crucial shot, because it shows that Gandalf was right and that the palantír ís a dangerous tool. (It also points us towards something we will see in ROTK.)
I also loved the whining trees: when one of the trees is pulled down, it roars as if in terrible pain. That was great, because it establishes a motif for the Ents' actions in TTT; ànd it reminds us of the view on nature Tolkien uses in his books – a living, breathing, intelligent nature that has a soul of its own. That little moment reminds us bookies of the Old Forest for instance, or of Mirkwood in 'The Hobbit'.
Lintelómiel
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 01, 2003 08:59
OK, I admit it: I was awfully late. I hadn't read the books so I had no idea that Saruman was evil; also Gandalf tricked us non-bookies by saying that Saruman was 'wise and powerful'. So when Mr. Lee came down the stairs, I was all excited like, "Yay! Wise powerful wizard will know what to do! Saruman will save the world!"
Of course I noticed that he wasn't as lovable and scruffy as Gandalf but I gave it no further thought. As the conversation between him and Gandalf progressed, I got a slightly uneasy feeling though ; especially when Saruman started talking about lidless eyes wreathed in flame. However, when he sat down on his throne and said that the Nine would kill the Ringbearer, with that glimmer in his eyes , realization dawned on me: Saruman is not good wizard! Saruman is bad wizard!

That's part of the charm of seeing LOTR without having read the books: you're constantly caught off-guard...
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 04, 2003 04:01
I knew from the books, but if I hadn't read them, it would definitely have been when I saw him. His line: "My old friend" sounded, kind of, well, sly, greasy...his voice was too nice. That's like saying two things, but I know what I mean, even if no-one else does.

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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 05, 2003 09:33

As the conversation between him and Gandalf progressed, I got a slightly uneasy feeling though ; especially when Saruman started talking about lidless eyes wreathed in flame. However, when he sat down on his throne and said that the Nine would kill the Ringbearer, with that glimmer in his eyes , realization dawned on me: Saruman is not good wizard! Saruman is bad wizard!

That's part of the charm of seeing LOTR without having read the books: you're constantly caught off-guard...

Me too Lintelomiel! When Saruman says, "I have seen it." (First Gandalf says, "You know this? How?" in response to the information Saruman gives him), that was when I thought - eeeeeevil! But then I did have to check with my friend next to me to make sure my guess was right. You're right about the charm of seeing LOTR without having read the book - but I had to give in eventually and read TTT and ROTK!

I love the scene where the orcs are felling the trees, because it hints at TTT and the ents, and its just very well done. Who would have guessed that all the shots of trees being felled was just one tree falling over from different angles! Ingenious!
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 08, 2003 11:08
I had already read the books, so i knew but i still think Saruman had "Evil" spelt out all over his forehead!
Diva
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 09, 2003 05:34
It's hard to saythe exact moment...When I saw the tower I rember thinking "that place is definetly evil" and then I was like, "but this is a good guy, so never mind." Then Saruman was all mean to Gandalf and stuff so I was like, "Treason!" Yeah...
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: June 24, 2003 05:50
I had already read the books, so I knew. But if I hadn't know, I think Saruman's voice-over would have put me on guard: "The hour grows late and Gandalf the Grey rides to Isengard seeking my counsel." Those last three words were just dripping with conscious irony: "He's coming to ME for advice! HA!"
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Post RE: Sequence by Sequence #5: The Treason & the Spoiling Of Isengard
on: July 01, 2005 07:10
THe treason of Isengard was my favorite part. Very intense.
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