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Figwit
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Post 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 23, 2003 10:26
Okay, some questions [and if you have some more, simply PM me!]

1) The characterisation of Merry & Pippin: have they changed a lot since FOTR? Are their reactions credible?

2) The culture and behaviour of the Uruk-hai: what can be said about those? Are they very different from the Orcs, and if so: how? {PbHf's Quote of the Week also discusses aspects of this matter.}

3) We get a glimpse at the greater conflict here: Saruman vs. Sauron. Do you like the way Tolkien worked this aspect in?

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by Figwit]
DrDoodoo2003
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 24, 2003 10:46
umm.. I don't know. I've also got another question... In the movie, the Urukhai commander is Lurtz. In the book, its Ugluk. Why didn't they just keep it Ugluk?
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 25, 2003 12:52
I don't know - it sounds more of a movie than a book question to me

But this is an attempt: I remember Peter Jackson saying that they thought if the Uruk-hai were sort of leaderless, then rows and riots like the ones in the book would occur more easily.

This ties in with the question about the Uruk-hai 'culture': they seem to be organised like an army section rather than a group of travellers - with one leader, clearly, and strict discipline.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 25, 2003 09:17
I find the Uruk-hai to be more like a street gang or a motorcycle gang. They are led by the strongest and the leader's commands are obeyed without question, under penalty of death or injury. They have an evil sense of humor and take a great delight from the suffering they cause in others, and even injuries to their own do not upset them and can be cause for jest..

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 27, 2003 12:06
you have a good point there, PbHf

I'm also thinking - do Orcs do that, hurt eachother for sport? I don't remember, really.
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 27, 2003 01:15
I don't think they hurt each other on purpose, as far as I can remember, but I don't think they would care if they accidentally hurt another orc, or if an orc got in the way of their swords .....
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 29, 2003 03:55
I've always thought that, this chapter shows well both the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of the orcs.

The Uruk-hai seem to be some kind of elite troops, maybe even specially bred, but certainly specially trained. Their ruthlessness, cruelty, and endurance make them perfect for the purpose they are used for: an army made to conquer and utterly destroy their enemies.

But, their inability to cooperate with the orcs of different breeds, mistrust of each other (often for a reason), and tendency to resolve disagreements by violence severely weaken the troops from the inside. And, if they are not led by a strong and ruthless commander, they tend to panic and flee. That is at least partly the reason for their defeat by the Rohirrim, who can pick them one by one. (There is another part later in the story where this comes out even clearer, but it is rather far ahead yet.)

As for the hobbits: I think Pippin does what everyone would try to do if abducted - run away, or if that isn't possible, even leave some mark for the searchers. But, doing that, he ceases to be just a tagalong, and starts to take his fate into his own hands.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 30, 2003 12:18
Well Morwinyoniel, I really agree with what you wrote there... I'm thinking ahead now, but in this chapter too you can already see something of that single-mindedness and how that's not helping them.

What I wonder is, if they were specifically bred for this purpose, how that would happen. And if they were only trained for it, how does that happen then?

I can't help but feel Tolkien meant something with this chapter, and that I'm missing the point.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: November 30, 2003 02:36
What I wonder is, if they were specifically bred for this purpose, how that would happen. And if they were only trained for it, how does that happen then?

A long-term project of conventional breeding, I'd suppose. Take the biggest and meanest individuals, both male and female, and mate them with each other - somehow, I don't think affection played any part in the forming of orc couples in general. (Note: This is completely my own conception.) And, were they specifically bred or not, the most suitable individuals were chosen, and put through a hard training and some sort of brainwashing to make them the fanatics they were. There are plenty of examples of similar troops in the real world history, the latest maybe the different terrorist organizations of today.
I can't help but feel Tolkien meant something with this chapter, and that I'm missing the point.

I have to reread this chapter even more analytically and thoughtfully, and think of it from that POV. But, at least I can read one thing between the lines here: Never give in, no matter how hopeless the situation may seem. That attitude very much saved the hobbits.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: December 01, 2003 12:34
A long-term project of conventional breeding, I'd suppose. Take the biggest and meanest individuals, both male and female, and mate them with each other - somehow, I don't think affection played any part in the forming of orc couples in general. (Note: This is completely my own conception.) And, were they specifically bred or not, the most suitable individuals were chosen, and put through a hard training and some sort of brainwashing to make them the fanatics they were.


Sounds like Plato, but in the opposite version - his idea was to make a perfect state, eugenics I suppose. Maybe that's what Tolkien had in mind too? I really need to re-read this chapter!
Naurlas
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Post RE: 3.III. The Uruk-hai
on: December 02, 2003 08:49
Conflict: Saruman vs. Sauron. Do you like the way Tolkien worked this aspect in?

"They might ask where his strange ideas came from.
Did they come from Saruman perhaps? who does he think he is, setting up his own with his filthy white badges?


I think this is a wonderful example by Tolkien using an arguement to ramp up the tension between the two towers. It certainly shows that although we might think Saruman is Sauron's minion, it's quite clear he has his own agenda for the recovery of the ring. It also makes you wonder, just how many fronts is Sauron going to have to fight on and how will this affect the rest of the fellowship?
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