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atalante_star

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Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: November 28, 2003 08:56

I found an *incredible* Old English quote today, from a poem on the Battle of Maldon - which is apparently considered "the finest expression of the germanic heroic creed of implacable resistance no matter how futile"

"Thought must be the stronger, heart the bolder,
courage must be the greater, as our strength lessens."

"Hige sceal Þe heardra, heorte Þe cenre,
Mod sceal Þe mare Þe ure maegen lytlað"

Anyway, I really feel that this sums up the attitude of the Men in Middle-earth, especially in the late Third Age, but at many other times too.

A quote I've found from TTT which shows the same sort of strength in the face of doom:

"When dawn comes, I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth. Will you ride with me then, son of Arathorn? Maybe we shall cleave a road, or make such an end as will be worth a song - if any be left to sing of us hereafter."

Anyway, not sure what I want to get out of this post .... but I had to share that quote. Its incredible.

Figwit

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: November 28, 2003 11:19

it reminds me most of the Rohirrim (from which you took the quote), it seems that the Men of Gondor for instance are more easily defeated mentally

this sums up a great chunk of what I consider to be the main theme of LOTR: how to handle fate properly

atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 01, 2003 01:05

Thought you'd like that

And actually I didn't take it from the Rohirrim, I was reading the Battle of Maldon verses, and came across it that way ....

atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 01, 2003 11:23

Doh! Sorry

wasn't very awake yesterday .....

The Battle of Maldon poem describes the last stand of Byrhtnoth, Earl of Essex, against a Viking horde in AD991. So I guess the writer was also English .....

Figwit

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 01, 2003 11:50

ah, I was thinking about Beowulf really, since you were mentioning the very early texts... but Beowulf is older in conception then, if this describes an actual event

it's just strange to me how the core of Germanic belief has remained so akin even after the tribes spread across Europe... especially since there was not too much travel back and forth between the different regions

Cressida

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 02, 2003 06:04

it reminds me most of the Rohirrim (from which you took the quote), it seems that the Men of Gondor for instance are more easily defeated mentally

Hrm. If you're thinking of the contrasting reactions to the nazgul, I can sort of see what you mean. However, I'm not sure the difference is due to a discrepancy in mental strength. I think it's important to remember that Gondor is right in the shadow of Mordor. The inhabitants of Minas Tirith are likely to be more worn down from long exposure, while the Rohirrim are coming in "fresh."

Figwit

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 04, 2003 12:56

That's a good point Cressida, but there might be more to it: the Rohirrim have clearly been 'shaped' by Tolkien in light of the Germanic tribes like Danes and Saxons - and they have an idea of Fate and how to deal with it.

They're pretty primitive, and compared to them the Gondorian civilisation is a lot more like medieval chivalry than really rooted in the Germanic tradition - and that would mean a christian dimension. I'm not saying of course that it's chivalrous to be easily defeated, but this type of storytelling had a different approach towars hope and fate: they had the notion that hope is something that can change the future, and when the future starts to look too grim, people loose hope.

The Rohirrim don't have Hope, they have Fate: and if Fate is cruel to them, they'll go like: oh, okay, let's at least die a valiant death then, let's laugh at Fate.

See the difference?

(of course I'm talking themes and influences here, and not actual content

)

atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 04, 2003 04:15

The Rohirrim don't have Hope, they have Fate: and if Fate is cruel to them, they'll go like: oh, okay, let's at least die a valiant death then, let's laugh at Fate.

I think they do have Hope, but a Hope that is interpreted differently to our own notion of Hope. When things start look "hope-less", such as at Helm's Deep, the Hope switches from "I hope we survive this" to "I hope I die with honour", "I hope we are remembered for valour and glory", "I hope we will have glory in Valhalla / Halls of Mandos or whatever"

Do you think that's right, Figgy? You know much more about this than me

Nienna-of-the-Valar

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 04, 2003 08:21

I'm pretty much with Figwit on this one, though I know little about Germanic tradition. I can say that what I feel about the Rohirrim is that they felt like when it came to a point that they could see no hope of survival they thought: "well we will then go down fighting until the very last". They didn't hope that they would die with some honor, they knew that they would, it being in the nature of their people.

atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 04, 2003 08:52

I can say that what I feel about the Rohirrim is that they felt like when it came to a point that they could see no hope of survival they thought: "well we will then go down fighting until the very last".

Oh yes, I agree. I don't think I explained myself very well last time, and I probably won't now, either - lol. But I'll try.

So, at the end - "we'll go down fighting" - with 2 slightly different outcomes. Yes, we'll die, but we'll just die, or we'll die with honour. Trying to remember about the "entrance rules" for Valhalla - all noble warriors got it, but I can't remember if you had to die honourably to get in ..... If all warriors got in, I take back everything I've said

Figwit

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: December 04, 2003 10:04

ah, not just honorable, if you wanted at shot at fighting on Ragnarók, you had to die with your sword in hand!

I guess the way you describe it sort of fits it in modern language, but the concept of 'hope' was really strange to the Germanic (and especially Danish) people: they had this idea of chaos starting it all and in the end chaos would also overcome - so everything's doomed from the start

hope is only something you can 'use' as a category in thinking when you had it from the start, you know: the possibility of a happy ending

Tolkien doesn't say anything about the Rohirric religion, so I can't say if he went that far, but I do feel that the Rohirrim lean more towards Fate than Hope. And if that's true, they possibly don't have such a nice idea of an afterlife either.

Sindaeririel

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: January 06, 2004 11:24

i just noticed that exactly this quote is used in lotr, perhaps in the extended version of rotk.

here's the link, it's the last quote at the bottom of the page:

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_rotk.htm#hige

did any of you see that?

Cressida

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: January 09, 2004 12:38

Figwit wrote:
They're pretty primitive, and compared to them the Gondorian civilisation is a lot more like medieval chivalry than really rooted in the Germanic tradition - and that would mean a christian dimension. I'm not saying of course that it's chivalrous to be easily defeated, but this type of storytelling had a different approach towars hope and fate: they had the notion that hope is something that can change the future, and when the future starts to look too grim, people loose hope.

The Rohirrim don't have Hope, they have Fate: and if Fate is cruel to them, they'll go like: oh, okay, let's at least die a valiant death then, let's laugh at Fate.

See the difference?

I see the difference, but I feel like there's an additional element I can't quite put my finger on just at the moment. I'll have to think about it for a bit. Let me think "out loud" a bit while I type.

Denethor and Theoden are certainly good examples of the attitudes you describe--Theoden's determination to go out in a blaze of glory (first at Helm's Deep and later at the Pelennor) vs. Denethor being broken and giving up. Of course, he also goes out in a blaze of glory in his own way...pun intended.

On the other hand, setting Denethor aside, Gondor does continue to fight even though "It is long since [they] had any hope." They're just more grim and less flashy about it than the Rohirrim are. Perhaps they survive by focusing on smaller hopes: staying alive for one more day, defending one other person, or at least dying with the knowledge that they have done everything they could possibly do? Or perhaps they survive because they have a larger hope, a trust in Good beyond the reach of the Shadow, something like the hope brought to Sam by the sight of the star in Mordor?

I can see what you mean about the fact that having Hope leaves a person vulnerable to having that hope destroyed; I'm just trying to find the flip side of it.

Anyway, while I'm pondering that, let me toss another idea into the mix: What about hobbit hope? Do hobbits believe that hope can change the world? Do Frodo and Sam truly believe or hope that their task can be accomplished, and if not, what keeps them going? I'm reminded also of the names given to them: Frodo as "Endurance Beyond Hope" and Sam as "Hope Unquenchable"...yet even Sam accepts as they approach Mount Doom that they are both almost certainly going to die.

And would someone like to comment on the Elves and the "long defeat"--the exile of the Noldor and the fight against Morgoth?

Great thread!

[Edited on 9/1/2004 by Cressida]

Cressida

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: February 10, 2004 09:24

I spotted this post on another board today (original here) and thought it was applicable to this thread:

In Roman Catholicism (the worldview that pervades LOTR), there are two kinds of despair that the theologians discuss.

One is spiritual despair, the sense that one has been abandoned by God, that one's soul will never find comfort. This is considered a very grave moral infirmity that makes faith impossible, or causes a loss of faith.

The other kind of despair is mundane despair: a sense of defeat, that one's deeds, however moral and just, will come to nothing IN THIS WORLD.

Despair prevents one from acting, from doing the right thing. One can fail to have hope, in the sense that one believes that one's actions will not avail, but still press on doggedly, determined to do the right thing whatever the outcome.

Tolkien writes in several places about the moral imperative to go forward with just actions, even if there is no hope: it is commitment to doing what is right, without regard for the consequences. This view also echoes another worldview that Tolkien admired, the Northern Heroic ethos of "naked will and courage" in the face of insuperable odds; after all, in Ragnarok, the good guys ultimately lose, and chaos triumphs, but the struggle against evil is glorious nonetheless.

[Edited on 10/2/2004 by Cressida]

tuttleturtle

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: February 10, 2004 02:07

mad at self for not going in book forum sooner...I needed quotes like that just a little while ago, and came tobooks forums with in a week of that.

now that that's out of the way I need to put up a quote from Tarzan (reading for school) well I'll put it up later.

atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: June 06, 2004 06:50

Post - Figwit:

Tolkien writes in several places about the moral imperative to go forward with just actions, even if there is no hope: it is commitment to doing what is right, without regard for the consequences. This view also echoes another worldview that Tolkien admired, the Northern Heroic ethos of "naked will and courage" in the face of insuperable odds; after all, in Ragnarok, the good guys ultimately lose, and chaos triumphs, but the struggle against evil is glorious nonetheless.

Perfect. Thanks Cressida for posting this. I have a slight problem with the theological duality as it's presented, but that's just a matter of terms I fear, so I won't bother you lot with it.

I must point out however that the concept of fate and the concept of hope are not easily reconciled: in fact, I know of only two attempts - the reformation (calvinism) and Nietzsche - and both failed conceptually.

Since hope is one of the key virtues of christianity, as this post points out, I think it's the other way around: what you see is the typical Germanic concept of fate, but it does echo to some extent the hope-beyond-hope (because there is life-beyond-life) idea of christianity.

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atalante_star

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: June 06, 2004 06:57

Bingo Took's post:

Do Hobbits have hope? Yes, absolutely!

Just look at Sam. It's true that he does come to accept the fact that there "will be no return journey", but that isn't where his hope is placed. What he hopes in is that they (he and Frodo) can make it to Mount Doom, that the Ring will be destroyed, that Good will triumph over Evil, that the world will be made better, though perhaps not for themselves, and most importantly, that he can make things easier for Frodo. Frodo is his hope, his inspiration, his motivation.

In another way, Frodo's hope is in Smeagol. That is, that what is corrupted can be made right again. It is only after being betrayed by Gollum that Frodo's hope really is lost.

Merry and Pippin hope in the strong characters around them, that they can make everything all better, but along the way they learn to inspire, and that they inspire, hope in others as well.

Hobbits *are* hope!

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Cressida

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: March 10, 2008 04:35

I keep coming back to this thread! It's one of my favorites from way back. I thought of it when I happened across an interesting essay last night while searching for something else:

Tolkien vs. Jackson: One Man's Hopelessness, Another Man's Hope

It's a comparison of the theme of hope in the books vs. the movies.

I don't agree with the article 100%; think the author exaggerates Tolkien's hopelessness to some degree, and he forgot at least one example which appears in LOTR, as I mentioned in comments. I also don't agree that mundane hope is in any way considered a bad thing in the books. Still, it's another perspective on the topic of this thread...and an excuse to bump it.

cirdaneth

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: March 10, 2008 09:54

Thanks for posting this link, Cressida.

But Oh dear! What a distasteful article! This person is like someone who winnows grain and serves up the husks, claiming it proves the crop is bad! I pity him!

He is dealing only with amdir, the earthly hope, and not with estel which holds that Eru would not have created His children unless He intended good for them in the end.

largo

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: March 11, 2008 02:00

Oh dear! What a distasteful article! This person is like someone who winnows grain and serves up the husks, claiming it proves the crop is bad! I pity him!

He is dealing only with amdir, the earthly hope, and not with estel which holds that Eru would not have created His children unless He intended good for them in the end.

Actually that's not true. Though I didn't spell out the distinction between amdir and estel in this particular article (I have in other places), it's implied just the same.

As I said, there are very rare cases where hope is reliably positive in LOTR: Sam's star in the Morgai Vale and Aragorn's moniker. And in those two cases, it's precisely Estel that's in view. It's almost like Sam has an epiphany when he fixates on the star. His hope isn't for Frodo's quest in thr short term (Tolkien made it abundantly clear that Sam "never had any hope in the quest" because as a cheerful hobbit he didn't need it) but for a radical change which would someday break the cycle of the world's endless suffering. That's the idea of Estel as discussed by Finrod and Andreth.

As for Aragorn, he's a living paradox, someone whom people put their hope in knowing he has a hopeless role to fulfill.

So yes, there is Estel in Middle-Earth, but it is very rare.

Cressida

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: March 11, 2008 04:59

Wow, I had no idea the author of the article was a member of this board!

I'd say a lot of the question seems like a "glass-half-full/glass-half-empty" issue: whether one focuses on the fact that characters in this world only get rare glimpses of hope, or the fact that they have any at all. On the religious aspect, I think it's worth remembering that the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth are aware of Eru, even if only as a distant figure, and the Valar as his direct subordinates. This puts them slightly ahead of the characters in the Norse sagas, who would be completely in the dark about such matters.

I definitely agree that the movies took a very different, Hollywood-y, view of the theme of hope, however.

Lilan

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: April 02, 2008 01:02

I tend to take a more general approach, and to me, the book definitely doesn't sound hopeless (don't know how valid such a statement is!). It's more like...knowing we all have to die some time is pretty hopeless, but doesn't mean we have to stop living, even for an atheist who doesn't have estel, right? I think I view LotR somewhat like that.

And then, there's Gandalf, who, to me, is a very encouraging and "hope-bringing" character. I admit I have to chuckle at his conversations with some characters who say everything is awful and they can't possibly deal with it...he usually says something like "You know what? You have no idea how much worse than you think it is, but I'll tell you something...you actually can deal with it."

[Edited on 2/4/2008 by Lilan]

Eowyn_White_Lady

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RE: Courage and strength when hope is gone
on: January 29, 2011 02:42

Otay, I know that everyone's been talking about hope in here recently, but I've got something on the fate aspect. I'm taking of a Tolkien class in college this semester (*squee* so happy!), and my professor mentioned how Tolkien never used a word he didn't mean to and know exactly what all the implications of that word were. She gave us the example of fate.

Apparently, in the old German languages that Tolkien studied, fate didn't mean what we take it as today. It didn't mean predestination or some preordained end for us. It meant more "eventuality".

So, fates and dooms weren't so much deaths or ends determined by Eru or Mandos or any other high being, but the end that actions make possible/probable.

Not to say powers don't sometimes get involved (we talked about that, too) but there's a decent bit of choice/free will in that word fate.

Since the Rohirrim is pretty heavily based on Germanic/Anglo people, I thought it was kind of interesting.

cirdaneth

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on: June 08, 2014 12:14

My goodness! Why did we miss discussing this?

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