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Figwit
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Post 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 29, 2003 02:44
Aha, one of my favourite chapters!

I'll come up with some more questions, but these should get us started (as ever, if you have suggestions, feel free to pm me!):

- King Théoden himself of course: what's he like? How does he compare to other figures of authority we've met along the way [Elrond, Aragorn, Gandalf, Galadriel...]? Do you like him?

- What can we say about Gríma Wormtongue based on this chapter alone? How are the different attitudes towards him and how does this reflect Tolkien's themes?

- How is the perception of Gandalf? Is that different from how *we* see him, and how the members of the Fellowship see/saw him?

- A lot of attention is paid to 'weapons' in this chapter - why? Is it just a trait of the epic as a literary form, or is there more to it?

- Háma is a key character in this chapter: what kind of person is he? How does this fit with Tolkien's themes?
Why is Háma the first to think of Éowyn as a possible leader for Théoden's people?

- This chapter deals with ignorance and knowledge/wisdom (Gríma vs. Gandalf). We've seen this before (in the Shire, with Éomer...). Does this say something about Tolkien's view on (the use of false) knowledge and ignorance? How does this tie in with his concept of good and evil?

- We're also introduced to Éowyn in this chapter: what kind of a person is she? What kind of character? How is she compared to the other women we've met (Arwen and Galadriel)?
What do you think of Aragorn's reaction to her?

- Gandalf tells Théoden something that gives him hope: what do you think it is?

- Again we get the theme of pity. Why is Wormtongue spared (other than as a plot device)? What does this tell us about Éomer, Gandalf and Théoden; and Gríma?

- This chapter also deals with death and old age. In what way? Do you think Théoden's attitude is typical for the Rohirrim?

- An extra question from HermioneFrodo: is Saruman really in Théoden's body? I thought this was an easy one, but when I started thinking about it I found that it's not an unlikely thought: maybe Saruman in a way did influence Théoden physically too? It's odd that such a powerful wizard had to use Gríma to influence the King?

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with Gríma Wormtongue.

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by Figwit]
fishi
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 30, 2003 11:55
We're also introduced to Éowyn in this chapter: what kind of a person is she? What kind of character? How is she compared to the other women we've met (Arwen and Galadriel)?
What do you think of Aragorn's reaction to her?

She's not really given much depth in this chapter. The first comment on her character is given when she goes back inside the house, "strong as steel, a daughter of kings" and all that. Not a bad introduction to her at all. There's also the scene when she stands on the steps of Meduseld. There's a nice Kaluta painting of that scene.
That little snapshot shows she's a warrior, as opposed to Galadriel and Arwen. Lovely people, but less than likely to pick up a weapon.

You also get an impression of her severe crush on Aragorn. And that crush shows more of who she is, she wants the tall muscular manly kingly type

And he looked down upon her fair face and smiled; but as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch. "Hail Aragorn son of Arathorn!" she said. "Hail Lady of Rohan!" he answered, but his face now was troubled and he did not smile.

He's a good bloke, and I think he already sees that he's going to have to let her down.


King Théoden himself of course: what's he like? How does he compare to other figures of authority we've met along the way [Elrond, Aragorn, Gandalf, Galadriel...]? Do you like him?

He's a good fella who's been decieved by Wormtongue most nastily. I like him a lot.

[Edited on 30/12/2003 by fishi]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 31, 2003 05:12
also the scene when she stands on the steps of Meduseld. There's a nice Kaluta painting of that scene


Ooh yeah, that's a beautiful illustration!

You know, I get a sense of how young Éowyn is in this chapter - not at first, but when she's waiting on everyone...

The introduction of Arwen was all about her beauty and her age, you know you get Frodo who sees this ancient Elf Lady looking at him and describing what she looks like.

With Galadriel there isn't much of an introduction, and most of what we learn about her is in the dialogue rather than in the text.

But with Éowyn I have the feeling that Tolkien is trying to describe something of her character through his depiction of her:

Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes. Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Éowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood.
~ 3.VI


There's heaps of information in this quote.

Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that Frodo (who's perspective is used to describe both Arwen and Galadriel) is a bit of a naieve Hobbit; whilst Aragorn will notice different things?
fishi
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 31, 2003 06:10
You know, I get a sense of how young Éowyn is in this chapter - not at first, but when she's waiting on everyone...

Now I think about it, her story is a growing-up story. She is fairly young, and dreams of glory and handsome Kings of Gondor. But by the end she's gone through the battles and it matures her. The other lady characters are past that by a millennia or two, so there's none of that for the she-elves.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 31, 2003 06:31
yeah, without giving too much away (because we're not supposed to read ahead ), I guess that at the end Éowyn will be a lot more like Galadriel and especially Arwen...
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: December 31, 2003 08:08
Théoden is one of my favorite characters in the whole story. He is a noble and authoritative figure, who just has lost his morale and judgement because of the lies and poisons of Wormtongue. When Gandalf wakes him up, we see that his condition really has been mostly psychological; he may be old, but he is still strong. And, when the spell has been lifted, he can see the reality again, and realize the mistakes he has made in his paranoia.

His nobility comes well out in the way he treats Wormtongue, after the treacherous counsellor has been revealed. Instead of pronouncing a death sentence to him at once, he gives him an opportunity to redeem himself, and even when Wormtongue refuses it in a very insulting manner, he lets him go unharmed yet this time. Maybe Gandalf advises Théoden to spare him, because he feels that, Wormtongue may also still have a part to play in the events.

But, he still seems to have a blind spot when it comes to his niece. He doesn't seem to realize the bravery, strength, and authority that others see in Éowyn, until they are pointed out to him. Háma, as a bystander, who has due to his work probably been able to follow the life of the royal family rather closely, has certainly noticed them - as does Aragorn, even though he sees Éowyn for the first time.

Although the primary inspiration for Rohan was the Anglo-Saxon culture, the attitude of the Rohirrim soldiers to death also somehow reminds me of the mentality of the ancient Spartan warriors: You return with your shield, or on your shield - either victorious, or dead. There's no surrender, no retreat. To gloriously fall in the battle is regarded as a good way for a man to die, and the heroic fallen are remembered in songs and stories. It is also notable that, not even old age stops them from going - Théoden himself is the prime example, still willing to lead his host to battle, and:
At the gate they found a great host of men, old and young, all ready in the saddle.


(Back with more ponderings later. )
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 01, 2004 08:33
Very good post Morwinyoniel! I especially like your comparison to the Spartans: the Rohirrim always remind me of the Danes as they are portrayed in Beowulf, and they have a similar way of thinking about death and glory, and the need to become immortal through songs.
It would be very interesting to find out what kind of vision the Rohirrim have on the afterlife.

Given the kind of character Théoden is (he is indeed one of the strongest characters in the third and fifth book), I did always wonder about how such a Man could fall for the lies of someone like Wormtongue.
Ioreth_Fimbrethil
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 01, 2004 01:44
OK, this is my first post in this thread, although I have been lurking for a while now. I hope it'll all make sense. I find it hard to read the books now and blot out the movie completely, still I do picture many characters as I used to, but here are some I didn't give enough attention to, when reading, and so I'm more influenced in their case.

- King Théoden himself of course: what's he like? Do you like him?
I like him. I love him in the movie :love: but I still picture him a bit differently when I read the book. He is weak but as soon as he regains his lost confidence, he radiates. He is like a fatherly figure, a man that everyone loves and his inner strenght is such that all the rohirrim would die for him.

How is the perception of Gandalf? Is that different from how *we* see him, and how the members of the Fellowship see/saw him?
I think the people of Rohan don't really realise who Gandalf is, to them he's just a strange old man who talks differently and is even slightly annoying. Most of the folks there have no idea that Gandalf has known most of their kings for centuries.

A lot of attention is paid to 'weapons' in this chapter - why? Is it just a trait of the epic as a literary form, or is there more to it?
Well, as Morwinyoniel said the rohirrim are a folk of war and weapons, the most important things to them are their horses and their weapons. I like the image used in the movies, that they are vikings on horses instead of ships. You can see that every man and every woman is trained from childhood to bear arms and fight for their survival, it's a harsh country with many foes. So most of their lifes revolve around weapons.

- We're also introduced to Éowyn in this chapter: What do you think of Aragorn's reaction to her?
He reads her immediately, he's a bit embarassed by what he sees in her eyes, he knows he's going to let her down. But to him she's just a child with her dreams of glory. I like that image of her standing in front of the hall, with her sword. I don't picture it quite as the painting in that other thread though.

- Gandalf tells Théoden something that gives him hope: what do you think it is?
I can only guess, maybe there are hints elswhere that I forgot. It's not the ring as we see in this same chapter that Gandalf cannot talk about it. But I'm guessing it's about Aragorn, and the possible return of the old times, an alliance between men and a new and stronger kingdom. Also the glory of battle, that's something that would appeal to Théoden. To die with honour defending his people against the worst threat and to be in songs for ever like Eorl or Brego his ancestors.

That's all for now, I'll see what you guys have to say and maybe I'll find more to add. This is fun!
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 02, 2004 10:30
This is fun!


I'm glad to see you say that! And congrats on a very good first post!

I like the image used in the movies, that they are vikings on horses instead of ships.


They *are* Vikings alright : all that long blonde hair and all that talk of death and glory.

I think the people of Rohan don't really realise who Gandalf is, to them he's just a strange old man who talks differently and is even slightly annoying. Most of the folks there have no idea that Gandalf has known most of their kings for centuries.


The attitude of the guards at the gate and of Háma is rather positive though: they seem to have some kind of respect for him. Perhaps they do see him as a herald of woe, but they understand that this can only means he's important, or clear-sighted or something like that?
Ioreth_Fimbrethil
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 03, 2004 02:13

I'm glad to see you say that! And congrats on a very good first post!

Thanks! Well, it's the main reason I've joined the CoE, I'd like to talk about the books in depth, and discover new things that I've missed when reading alone. I tend to read too fast!


The attitude of the guards at the gate and of Háma is rather positive though: they seem to have some kind of respect for him. Perhaps they do see him as a herald of woe, but they understand that this can only means he's important, or clear-sighted or something like that?

I agree. I think the guards must be slightly more "educated" (for lack of a better word) than the rest of the people in Rohan. The others have their own lifes and even though they do see Gandalf as important they can't really grasp the full meaning of what he is. Do they know what a Maia is?
A bit like the hobbits who are just busy with their simple and joyfull lives, they like Gandalf but he's a bit of a trouble maker to them?

Given the kind of character Théoden is (he is indeed one of the strongest characters in the third and fifth book), I did always wonder about how such a Man could fall for the lies of someone like Wormtongue.


I guess it's a combination of things. First of all it's not just Wormtongue behind these words...
And also he knows exactly where people are the weakest, he probably used Théoden's grief for his wife and went from there. I can just picture him seemignly comforting the King and slowly gaining his trust so he can influence him. Like a Middle-eathian Iago

[Edited on 3/1/2004 by Ioreth_Fimbrethil]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 03, 2004 12:11
Do they know what a Maia is?


I don't know, but I don't think so. It's a pity Tolkien doesn't give so much information about the Rohirric religion, I think it would have been very interesting. I think these people may see Gandalf as an 'old Man', maybe someone of the Númenorean line? I think Gríma and Théoden know 'what' Gandalf is though, although they probably don't really understand the concept - Gríma would since he's had dealings with Saruman...
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 04, 2004 02:30
I agree with the Lady Ioreth Fimbrethil's idea that Grima used Theoden's grief over the loss of his wife (along with the death of his beloved sister, Theodwyn, when her husband Eomund died) as the likely source of his influence over the King. Even the strongest of men may be lead astray by long, slow and seemingly sympathetic whisperings.
As for the guards at the door, they would have to be the best of the best I would think: strong in character and loyal unto death as well as having the skills of war to be given the task of guarding the gates of Edoras. "Old and weary you seem now, and yet you are fell and grim beneath, I deem" is the description of one of them in re: Gandalf. He sees beneath the surface to the truth and acts honorably towards those who have just come to Edoras. Hama is an even better example of this as he faces Aragorn's unwillingness to leave Anduril: "This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn. . ." but still sees the truth: "I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honor, who have no evil purpose."
Tolkien used Beowulf for a great deal of his work on the Rohirram. Beowulf's hall is Meduseld and "the courts" around it are called Edoras as is the city of the Mark. As for the emphasis on weapons, this is a chapter in which the entire character of the people is established and the people of the Mark are well-described as "Vikings without ships" I think. This is one of my favorite chapters as there is so much woven into it.
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 12, 2004 02:56
Was Theoden upset with what the counsels of grima had done to him because it was destroying his ability to die like a warrior? a king of the Rohirrim would rather die gloriously in battle than fade away slowly .
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 12, 2004 03:53
Yes, I'm sure he was. I'm sure it was his expectation that, in this time of war, he would die valiantly in battle - and as King of the Rohirrim, it was also his duty.

To have that slowly taken away from him must have been both personally demeaning and upsetting - and it explains why has reaction was so strong to Gríma when released from his influence.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 12, 2004 05:21
Théoden really is someone who wants to grow old with dignity, but who allowed a fear of become weak turn him into someone who is weak. That's how I always saw him anyway. I guess once he senses that maybe the weakness isn't real, is self-imposed (or imposed by Gríma - Freud would have a couple of things to say about this), he also realises that strength is self-imposed.

I keep thinking of PbHf's quote from the Helm's Deep chapter: there 'hope' (in the sense of being able to continue fighting) is self-imposed as well.
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 20, 2004 06:33
Been thinking about what you said, Figwit--about "hope being self-imposed." You packed a lot into a very few words.

Is hope then (esp. when you are looking at 10,000 orcs sent to destroy you) a second cousin to faith? And, then for Theoden--faith in what? I tried to think of what words/feelings he might pass through when he saw those torches coming towards the dyke.

The sheer numbers set against him would be stunning--almost enough to crush anybody's spirit right there. But Theoden has remembered what it is to be a King and both duty and honor fobid his cowering and waiting to be destroyed. From somewhere he finds the strength to stand up again. I'm sure some part of his mind has to have been telling him it was hopeless but he shuts down that voice and concentrates on what he can do to inspire and defend his people. And he doesn't lie to them: he tells them that they must fight and try to win even if the only outcome is to die well and live gloriously beyond (which is one tough sell even to people such as the Rohirram when it comes down to it: don't we all want to live as long as we can?)

I can only think that is the honest and sincerity of the man that shines through and brings them to believe in and follow him. He's telling you straight up you got about 1 chance in 358,721 (sort of like winning the California State Lottery) BUT you and he are going to do this anyway. And you do.

An amazing character.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 20, 2004 07:51
Well, I like your post a lot. What I had in mind with that was that hope doesn't *really* depend on the odds but more on your own way of looking at it - it's a bit like Aragorn's constant repitition of the importance of the dawn for Men: as a blunt fact, dawn doesn't necesserily change much; but it's the thought that it could that does the trick. A bit like a placebo-effect.

I guess that means that I just said hope is a placebo-effect.
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: The King Of the Golden Hall
on: January 20, 2004 08:02
ROFL! I like that. (grins) can I have more sugar pills in my life then! Please!
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