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Figwit
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Post 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: December 29, 2003 02:54
I made a seperate topic for this one, because I consider this to be one of Tolkien's absolute masterpieces and definitely the most beautiful piece of poetry in Lord Of the Rings.

So, let's analyse it a bit: what is it about according to you? What are the metaphors about? Why does Aragorn sing this song at this point of the book?

[Oh, and if you disagree with me, feel free to say so ]


Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

___________

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord Of the Rings, Book III, Chapter VI


{For those interested, there is an article about this poem in the EL, you can read it here. No, I don't know who that Figwit is either... }
Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 03, 2004 10:29
I always thought the Gondorians invented this one at the battle at the Celebrant the Ride of Eorl .
Now Aragorn repeats this because he sees Rohan falling down .
No Riders rode through the Mark anymore , because the King ( Gríma ) has ordered them to sit still .
Rohan is weakening at the point they are needed most .
Or , this poem just fits Rohan perfectly , and Aragorn sings because of the memories he has to the Golden Hall and the times he helped Thengel .
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 04, 2004 03:42
I agree--it is the most lyric of his poems. It is how the Rohirram choose to remember the glory of their first King as he lead the eoreod south to fight at Celebrant. There is a very strong strain of melencholy (sp? sorry) and of the fleeting quality of life in their culture I think. So they glory in the brightness of battle while knowing that in the end, death claims us all. They celebrate and mourn life together as one.

[Edited on 5/1/2004 by Karamy]
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 05, 2004 05:35
They celebrate and mourn life together as one.


I like that phrasing! Their entire life, in a way, revolves around death: they are a military culture foremost, attaching a lot of value to glory, battle, weaponry and of course their horses.
Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 05, 2004 06:39
I guess they fight for glory on the battlefield , so they would not be ashamed in the halls of their fathers .
The Rohirrim see their life as a way to go in victory to the afterlife .
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 06, 2004 02:04
Firstly - let me say - go and read Figwit's article - its brilliant

Secondly, and this might totally contradict every Figwit has said (I've deliberated not reread the article so I say what I'm thinking ) .... and I'm going to focus on my favourite bits of the Hymn ....

They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.


These must be some of the most beautiful and languid lines of verse JRRT ever wrote. But I always somehow think that they should have been written about the elves - the race that to me embodies the theme of elegaic decay - the slow rot of beauty and elegant and wisdom over the millennia. But the same thing could be said of just the Third Age - passing from security and safety into another campaign of the Enemy - the land and its peoples slipping from safety and security into uncertainty and peril. Slowly ... very slowly - and slowly did the Dark Lord raise his arm against Middle-earth.

Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,


Who will be there to gather the dead when the victory charge is run? Who will be left to mourn and to celebrate the lives of those lost?

or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?


Beautiful. But I'm not quite sure what it means. Going to the Sea - yes, we all know about that - but "from the Sea returning" - that's a new one. Can't remember the timelines off-hand, but is this a reference to the Faithfu? or the Valar? Now I shall go and look at Figwit's article, where I am sure she has explained it all beautifully

Movies -

For once, I'm going to be nice to the movies . I think these lines fitted in wonderfully for Theoden in TTT. The "How did it come to this?" sent shivers down my spine, even if it utterly negates the idea of fate from the books For the film version of events, though, it is incredibly powerful.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 06, 2004 08:25
For once, I'm going to be nice to the movies . I think these lines fitted in wonderfully for Theoden in TTT. The "How did it come to this?" sent shivers down my spine, even if it utterly negates the idea of fate from the books For the film version of events, though, it is incredibly powerful.


It was stunning. Wrong, but stunning.

As for the


Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?


I always take these two together, because I can't see the meaning of the last scentence if I don't. To me it's mainly about giving meaning to things like nature and time: it's not just the sea, it's the 'flowing years from the Sea returning'. It's actually 'time': time that with the tide pours the same kind of events onto the shores of life time after time, the circularity of history.

But I could be completely off the mark here. It's one of the most beautiful poems, but it surely isn't the easiest.
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 06, 2004 01:20
umm... I have to agree with Figwit re: its being a reference to time rather than to the coming or going of Elves or Numenoreans. For me, the lines

Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

resonates with the fatality that is so much a part of their culture. For they know that as time passes all die and they know not who will come after. Glory of battle and calm, sad acceptance of the fate of Men.

[Edited on 6/1/2004 by Karamy]
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 06, 2004 01:29
Oh hang on, I get it Thanks Karamy ...

Both are rhetorical questions - "Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning" - well, maybe no-one. The fate of man is to die and go beyond.

"Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?" Again no-one. Years don't flow in that way. Years flow forwards, in the unstoppable tide of time. They don't flow backwards from the Sea at all.

As we've all said - its fate. Does that make sense to anyone or anything but my very tired brain?
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 07, 2004 12:22
"Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?" Again no-one. Years don't flow in that way. Years flow forwards, in the unstoppable tide of time. They don't flow backwards from the Sea at all.


wow, I really like that idea! I always thought the years did flow back - 'history repeats itself' - but this could be an even better interpretation of that last line

go atalante!

you know, with all our combined efforts, we'll get there
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 07, 2004 04:38
He he - that was a bit of a flash of inspiration last night!! And I do rather like it

I was talking to a friend last night after having that idea, and this was his interpretation - and it's kind of similar, but much more beautifully put:

It is possible to put a much simpler and more fundamental interpretation on these words. Put simply, it is a lament on the irreversible passage of time.

Once wood is burnt, the smoke cannot be gathered together again. Actually, that is entropy, but it is still a lament on the inevitability of decay and change and death. The reference to 'dead' wood reinforces the link to human mortality, as expressed earlier in the poem.

Similarly, the bit about years flowing from the Sea is meant to represent a reversal of the flow of time. The 'years' bit tells you that it is talking about time. The 'flowing from the Sea' bit tells you that the time is running backwards, in the sense that rivers flow towards the Sea and so flow _from_ the Sea evokes an image of time running backwards.

Both of these are impossible, so you could say that the final two lines are a lament on how no-one can stop the onrushing flow of time, carrying you from birth to death, from the spring down the river and out into the wide open Sea. Or the flame of life burning bright but eventually being extinguished with only smoke left, drifting on the wind. Powerful images.
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VI: Eorl's Hymn
on: January 07, 2004 11:11
Your friend expressed much clearer than I could ever have done! It is absolutely amazing how much emotion and meaning can be poured into so few words.
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