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Figwit
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Post 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 07, 2004 12:28
Okay, moving on (sadly) to Helm's Deep.

- The effect Théoden has on Ceorl is amazing: the Man goes from deep despair to eagerness for battle in mere seconds. How come? What kind of King is Théoden?

- The battle itself is pretty boring (especially compared to the movie). How does Tolkien try to create tension? Where does he incorporate 'real' war-moments?

- Even in this chapter a few relationships deepen and develop: Éomer & Aragorn, Éomer & Gimli, Legolas & Gimli and Aragorn & Théoden. Which one is your favorite and why?
How do the different interactions influence the character's development and story?

- 'Hope' is a strong theme throughout this chapter, and it travels from character to character. How does Tolkien use hope here? Why does he use it the way he does, and what does it tell us about Théoden and Aragorn?

- The fire of Saruman: how does this tie in with earlier encounters with Saruman, and the theme of technology versus knowledge?

- Does Aragorn act Kingly in this chapter? Where and why (not)?

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the concept of honour amongst Uruk-hair and Rohirrim.

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by Figwit]
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 07, 2004 04:21
Okay, moving on (sadly) to Helm's Deep.


Sadly? sadly????? This is a wonderful chapter

Though you'll have to wait till a bit later to see my views on it .... too busy writing about Elrond this afternoon to divert to Theoden till this evening
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 07, 2004 08:15
I personally prefer The King of the Golden Hall, hence the 'sadly'



{LOL - atalante }
didn't think that justified a separate post!

[Edited on 7/1/2004 by atalante_star]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 11, 2004 07:57
True, the battle is actually quite boring - except for the legendary orc killing contest between Gimli and Legolas ; the enemy attacks time after time, and the defenders of the fortress fend them off, as long as they can... But, I think, that actually belongs to the "real war moments", as does the fact that the men grow weary, run out of arrows, and their swords and shields are damaged. The tension comes from the moments when the orcs manage to get into the fortress by stealth, or almost get to Éomer or Aragorn, and from the suspense if the troops will reach the fortress before the enemy is upon them, if the fortress will hold despite the explosives used by the orcs, if Gandalf succeeds in whatever he is planning...

I have to come back with more on a better time - right now, just everybody here seems to want to talk with me about something, and I can't collect my thoughts...
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 11, 2004 09:00
Yes, some of the war scenes are "boring" - but remember Tolkien sat through WWI - and, yes, for most of it he did sit - in camps in France waiting and waiting for the Big Push.

I think it's Tolkien trying to impart some of the reality of war - that war is not glorious and heroic, that the business of war is ebb and flow - defend, attack, defend, attack.
Ioreth_Fimbrethil
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 11, 2004 11:14
I agree, it's more realistic like this. Still, there's quite a bit of action, i don't find it that boring now that I read it properly. I like it when Gimli suddenly springs out and saves Éomer, their relationship gives us more insight into the personality of Gimli, he doesn't like to show his emotions and plays the grumpy one, but deep inside he likes Éomer, that little "irk" they have about Galadriel is a sign of it too.
We also get to see more of the heroic side of the men there. Théoden who doesn't want to die hidden in the fort or Erkenbrand who looks like one of the heroes of old (bit Nibelungen like).

There's this up and down as Atalante_star said, and hope comes and goes too. I was very dissapointed by the horn in the movies for instance because I love the way it sends fear into the orc army. Same with Andúril, it has it's role to play, it's because Aragorn can actually wield it that the men acknowledge him as the heir of Elendil. And so do the orcs.

Am I the only one who finds it rather funny when the orcs go: " we are the fighting Uruk-hai". Doesn't sound too frightening, except if I picture a host of evil looking orcs chanting it in dark speech!
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 11, 2004 04:12
The uruk-hai seem to be the elite 'Special Forces' equivalent in M_E's evil forces. They have been trained to be the best, and have no doubt that they are the best. When they make that statement it is like saying- "You are facing the best there is "
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 11, 2004 04:45
Ceorl's transformation is pretty amazing. I have always assumed that some when before --Theoden must have been a king and war leader greatly loved by his people. The despair Ceorl feels when he first seeks Eomer to tell him that there is no hope I think is compounded of the fact that the Riders have suffered a terrible defeat at Isen Ford and that they had heard of the terrible state into which their King--who I get the feeling is a symbol of how their nation fares--is prematurely aged and enslaved to the wizard whose forces have just killed the man who was their hope: Theodred.

My thought is that for people of such a martial culture, the King must be a brave and virile leader for them to be truly confident. When he is weak, as Theoden was, the fatalism that is part of their culture comes to the fore. So when Theoden stands forth restored to himself Ceorl's emotions swing from despair to the joy of knowing that the Rohirram will fight and maybe die -- but they will die fighting and not cowering in the dark as he feared they would.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 12, 2004 07:57
Yes, some of the war scenes are "boring" - but remember Tolkien sat through WWI - and, yes, for most of it he did sit - in camps in France waiting and waiting for the Big Push.

I think it's Tolkien trying to impart some of the reality of war - that war is not glorious and heroic, that the business of war is ebb and flow - defend, attack, defend, attack.


That's true - I was also thinking about the trench warfare in WWI, and the author's own experience of it. Really strips the war of glory...

For me, the "fire of Saruman" is an example of how the achievements of technology can be used for either good or evil. The "fire" was probably gunpowder (anachronistic, I know) or some magical equivalent of it, used here to dismay and destroy those regarded as enemies. That goes well with the portrayal of Saruman as a technocrat who strives for power by any means necessary. Now, think about Gandalf's fireworks - it is very possible that he used exactly the same stuff in them, to create fun and pleasure for his friends.
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VII. Helm's Deep
on: January 12, 2004 08:28
Tolkien wrote a very telling thing about the frustration involved in warfare:

These grey days wasted in wearily going over, over and over again, the dreary topics, the dull backwaters of the art of killing, are not enjoyable.
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