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Figwit
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Post 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 19, 2004 08:38
- When Théoden says he despaired 'in the dark hours before the dawn', what is he talking about: the morning at Helm's Deep; or before that? ['Dawn' was also used by Aragorn in the previous chapter, as a token of hope.]

- The Dunlendings are pardoned, but little respect is paid to the Orcs - why?
What did become of the 'miserable Orcs'?

- Fangorn & the Glittering Caves: how does Tolkien use these two places to give us insight in the characters of Legolas and Gimli; their people and cultural background; and to tie them together? {Also, take a look at PbHf's Quote of the Week which also deals with the Dwarves.}


- In this chapter the confronation with the Ents results in a re-positioning of the tale into the greater scheme of things. Is this the first time Tolkien attempts such a thing?

- When the company passes the 'White Hand', its fingernails are bloody. Who do you think did that and why?

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by Figwit]
Tel_Quessir
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 19, 2004 08:28
i cannot answer all of the questions, but here is a start:


i believe Theoden's reference to the dark hours has to do with Wormtongue and his poisining of Theoden. he mentions that things are not as dark as they appeared in his dreams after Gandalf lifts the dark socery of Saruman.

Orcs. made by Melkor as a mockery of the elves. orcs do nothing but destroy. as for the dunlendings, it said they were tricked by Saruman. He said that the people of Rohan would not have mercy on them, but they did. as for what became of the orcs, the Hurons took them, i think. later on, Gandalf talks to Fangorn about needing to manage 10,000 orcs

the forest and the caves may tie in to acceptance. usually, elves and dwarves are not friends, but tolkien shows that when you spend time with them, you realize they are not all that different.

skip ent question (unsure)

i know that there is some significance in the White Hand being bloody, i think Gandalf mentions that the Ents do not leave out any detail, but to this, i am lost

[Edited on 20/1/2004 by Tel_Quessir]
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 19, 2004 10:32
i know that there is some significance in the White Hand being bloody, i think Gandalf mentions that the Ents do not leave out any detail, but to this, i am lost


I would guess the Ents / Huorns ......
atalante_star
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 19, 2004 10:40
This is an interesting quote from that chapter ....

"My people came out of the North long ago," said Théoden. "But I will not deceive you: we know no tales about hobbits. All that is said among us is that far away, over many hills and rivers, live the halfling folk that dwell in holes in sand-dunes. But there are no legends of their deeds, for it is said that they do little, and avoid the sight of men, being able to vanish in a twinkling: and they can change their voices to resemble the piping of birds. But it seems that more could be said."
"It could indeed, lord," said Merry.
"For one thing," said Théoden, "I had not heard that they spouted smoke from their mouths."


I really like this. It reinforces the notion that hobbits really are a secretive folk - and .... it shows us Théoden amused and unstressed - not a very common occurrence
Karamy
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 20, 2004 08:12
Fangorn & the Glittering Caves--friendship wins out in the end. Gimili had cringed a tad while in Fangorn (not surprising that an axe-bearing Dwarf would be uncomfortable with trees that can swat back at him) and Legolas seems to have a touch of Elvish claustrophobia when Gimili begins to wax poetic about the glories of Aglarond. Each of them has a setting that is "natural" to them and each setting is just about as opposite as they can be. But their respect for and friendship with one another is strong enough for both to begin to grant that the other's setting is, in fact, a beautiful thing in its own way. Pretty awesome all things considered. I think Tolkien was telling us something we all should learn to do here.

[Edited on 20/1/2004 by Karamy]
Tel_Quessir
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 20, 2004 12:29


I would guess the Ents / Huorns ......


yeah. i kno its about Ents. supposedly they dont leave out any detail when it comes to the white hand. but i dont know what they mean by not leaving out the details
Ioreth_Fimbrethil
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 23, 2004 11:55
Right, i'm still reading, but just to show off my new signature file....

I realise I've never payed real attention to the glittering caves before, I was too concentrated on the forests, Fangorn and the Huorns. I always wondered what they did to the orcs, did they use them as fertiliser? What if they were still alive? :shudder:
But the caves, wow! I still would rather follow Legolas into Fangorn but I've always liked caves, did some speleology when I was younger.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.VIII. The Road to Isengard
on: January 25, 2004 04:58
- The Dunlendings are pardoned, but little respect is paid to the Orcs - why?
What did become of the 'miserable Orcs'?

The Dunlendings are humans - mislead, but not basically evil. But, the Orcs are thoroughly evil creatures from the beginning, with no desire or even possibility to redemption; all that can be done with them is to destroy them. It is a very black-and-white setting - but, Middle Earth is not the politically correct world of today.

I would guess that, the Huorns trampled or, like the Old Man Willow "ate" Merry and Pippin, devoured all the orcs that had managed to escape into the forest.

- In this chapter the confronation with the Ents results in a re-positioning of the tale into the greater scheme of things. Is this the first time Tolkien attempts such a thing?

Off the top of my head, I can think of two instances that might fall into this category:

First, the Ring getting into the possession of Bilbo, and after him to Frodo - very extraordinary individual members of a people that could resist its lure for much longer than any others. Like Gandalf said to Frodo, it was meant that they got the Ring.

Second, the Phial of Galadriel, that contained the light of Eärendil. But, it is not very clear at this point yet, though, and can be fully understood only if one knows the backstory.
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