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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 08, 2004 12:59
From TTT, chapter X,The Voice of Saruman
'Come back Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement fo the others, Saruman turned again, and is if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard...



Gandalf has tried to speak with Saruman as an equal, but when Saruman will not co-operate, he makes it quite clear that they are no longer equals anymore.

[Edited on 8/2/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]

[Edited on 29/3/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 08, 2004 11:35
It's one of those typically-Tolkien pieces of wizardy: not bright flashes of light or floating objects, but the power to control the body of a person.

What I always wondered about is why Saruman didn't realise, didn't know even, that Gandalf had returned and that he was White.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 12, 2004 11:56
I disagree somewhat about the parley between Gandalf and Saruman. Gandalf knows they are no longer equals but to my mind addresses Saruman with respect for the fact that he used to be the White. And with hope, too, hope that he will realise the folly of his pride and not force Gandalf to "ram" his new status down Saruman's throat as he had to do in the quote. He wanted Saruman to accept his mercy and forgiveness and it would have been easier for Saruman if he realised the respect Gandalf was according him...just my opinion anyways, I just read that chapter last night and I'm no good at analysing something until I've read it at least 3 or four times....just thought I'd share...
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 14, 2004 08:37
Saruman was, at one time, the head of the White Council. When Gandalf left Frodo , in the Shire, and went to visit Saruman, Saruman was clearly the more powerful wizard, as he was able to hold Gandalf prisoner.
This meeting is the first time that it is demonstrated just how much their relationship has changed. Not only is Gandalf no longer subservient to Saruman, he is now able to command him. He is now Gandalf the white and has taken on Haruman's old role as leader of the Istari. Even though Saruman may not have realized it, It sems that when gandalf took on the white in replace of the grey, he apparently gained much of Saruman's strength.
But despite the changed roles and his knowledge of what saruman has become, he would still like to have Saruman's help. He still held some hope for redemption for Saruman and had to at least try to gain his assistance in the coming conflicts.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 14, 2004 11:10
very interesting points both of you - I must have stopped thinking somewhere along the line, because I hadn't thought of Gandalf's desire for Saruman to help him
Barahir1
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: February 26, 2004 07:34
I'm trying to recall but I seem to remember that Saruman already had an additude when he was first chosen to go to Middle Earth. I'll have to look back at it again just to make sure. One of the things that defeated Saurman is the same thing that still defeats men today, arrogance and feeling superiour to others.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: March 02, 2004 01:19
One of the things that defeated Saurman is the same thing that still defeats men today, arrogance and feeling superiour to others.


You're forgetting that he wás superiour: he had good reason to feel superiour.

I guess what makes Gandalf so different from Saruman in the very first place, is that Saruman's a man of science (to understand a think you must break it - remember: 'The white light can be broken...') and Gandalf's more of a traditional holistic thinker: to understand a thing you must understand how it works in the world, how it ties in with other things...

Saruman's scientific approach made him sedentary (he remained in Orthanc) and caused him to become very single-minded, focussed not on discovering more different things (like Gandalf who wanders across Middle-earth to discover everything there is to know) but deeper things about one subject: the craft of ring-making, and technology.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: March 02, 2004 09:41
One of the things that defeated Saurman is the same thing that still defeats men today, arrogance and feeling superiour to others.


You're forgetting that he wás superiour: he had good reason to feel superiour.



I'll argue with you on that one...I don't think difference equates to superiority. The Maiar were created, much the same as were Men and Elves. With decidedly different attributes, yes, but creations nonetheless. Feeling superior to someone because of differences is a recipe for feeling you have the right to order his life as you see fit, which is precisely what led to Saruman's downfall.
Gandalf himself later said that all wizards should have a hobbit in their keeping to teach them patience. Obviously he didn't feel that his Maiar capabilities made him perfect and capable of telling others how to run their lives or beyond learning from others, no matter how seemingly inferior....
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: March 03, 2004 12:42
I can see your point to some extent, but I've always pictured Saruman and the 'free peoples of Middle-earth' as a very smart teacher who lacks people skills, and a class of unruly kids. His knowledge and power áre superiour, but he just doesn't know how to convey these to his pupils.
Gandalf has excellent people skills, thát's a big difference between them. He's grumpy, granted, but he's a good judge of character and he can make others do exactly what he wants without commanding them.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: March 04, 2004 09:02
Hmmm...I'm not sure I can incline to see Saruman in such a kindly light, then again maybe I don't know him well enough to judge (I'm still reading the encyclopaedia). He just comes across in this chapter as very sure of his "superiority" and that it gives him the right to tell everyone else how to live. Just think about the way he spoke to Theoden, dismissing Gimli because he was from the Lonely Mountains far away, and Eomer because he was young, totally ignoring the Hobbits save to call them "ragtag dangling from Gandalf's coat tails"! Then he tried to appeal to the same hauteur (in my opinion) in Gandalf if possible...I'll take the grumpy old man over the know-it-all anyday...
Good point about Gandalf, though...although some might call it "manipulative", the way he manages people....but I don't think so.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the week- feb 8th 2004 [3.X.VoS]
on: March 05, 2004 05:24
I see what you mean with my being overly kindly if you put it that way . I guess I just try to understand Saruman a bit, since I can't believe that a good and wise spirit can just come to evil like that.
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