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Figwit
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Post 3.XI. The Palantír
on: February 20, 2004 05:53
1) How come Gandalf doesn't know immeditiately what the palantír is?

2) Pippin's malcontent about the journey: is that his desire for the palantír speaking, or is it sincere.

3) Is Pippin's reaction to Sauron pure luck, or is it another example of Hobbit strength?

4) a question suggested by arcticfox: Is it just me or does it seem that once Pippin picked up the Palantir he almost seemed to have no free will about looking into it? Doesn't Gandalf say the he himself found it extremely hard to resist looking into it after he handled it? What do you suppose that says about Sauron's control over that Palantir?

I may add some questions later, but I've been busy this week . If you can think of another question you'd like to discuss, just pm me and I'll see if I can add it!

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the Palantír and Nazgûl.

[Edited on 31/3/2004 by Figwit]
legolasfan27
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: February 20, 2004 07:27
1) How come Gandalf doesn't know immeditiately what the palantír is? - Ahmmm, I guess maybe having it thrown at his head didn't quite help...and wasn't the place flooded so afterwards while he was talking to Saruman it didn't occur to him to wonder until Pippin had it

2) Pippin's malcontent about the journey: is that his desire for the palantír speaking, or is it sincere. [/i]

[i]Definitely sincere to my mind...after his bout with Sauron he sounded cured of curiosity for it's own sake but he asked a lot of questions about where they were going and so on...
3) Is Pippin's reaction to Sauron pure luck, or is it another example of Hobbit strength?

[/i][i]I'll go with Hobbit strength, Frodo and Bilbo and Sam all exhibit the same resistance to evil as Pippin...their innate goodness seems to spring from their contentment with life and the way things are in the Shire...whereas Men have to fight not to give in because a desire for power is so ingrained in them...


[Edited on 20/2/2004 by legolasfan27]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 02, 2004 08:34
1) How come Gandalf doesn't know immeditiately what the palantír is?
Doesn't he, when he first gets a good look at it? I think that, at least he has some idea of what it is, and therefore doesn't let Pippin - or anyone else - handle it, before he later gives it to Aragorn's care.

3) Is Pippin's reaction to Sauron pure luck, or is it another example of Hobbit strength?
I think it's a bit both. Sauron doesn't keep him in his grasp for too long; he can't probably imagine that the hobbit Saruman's minions captured was not the one with the Ring. And, hobbits are surprisingly resistant against the forces of evil, maybe because they lack the desire for power that makes the other races much more vulnerable.
Luthien_Telperien
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 05, 2004 03:56
3) Is Pippin's reaction to Sauron pure luck, or is it another example of Hobbit strength?


In the book, I see it very much as Pippin's strength in refusing to respond, with pure luck as a minor factor, really. That was diminished somewhat in the movie, unfortunately, though I was glad to see Pippin gain strength later in the film as he does in the book. And I'm not sure that "luck" is the right way to describe Sauron's typical mode of expecting others to behave as he would and as he has told them to.

And that's my first book club contribution!
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 07, 2004 01:49
Sorry if I break any rules of the discussion with this post, but this occurred to me:

In the Assignments thread, Figwit also asked the readers to think that, this is the last chapter of Book 3; why does Tolkien leave off here?

In my opinion, this chapter is a perfect cliffhanger. The heroes have dealt with one evil, but there's still a much greater one ahead; and now, that greater evil knows - or will very soon find out - about the heroes. What will befall them in the near future? That the book ends this way, keeps up the reader's interest for continuation.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 07, 2004 02:12
Sorry if I break any rules of the discussion with this post, but this occurred to me:

In the Assignments thread, Figwit also asked the readers to think that, this is the last chapter of Book 3; why does Tolkien leave off here?

In my opinion, this chapter is a perfect cliffhanger. The heroes have dealt with one evil, but there's still a much greater one ahead; and now, that greater evil knows - or will very soon find out - about the heroes. What will befall them in the near future? That the book ends this way, keeps up the reader's interest for continuation.


Wow, you keep track of that a lot better than I do, Morwinyoniel!

I agree with you about after having dealt with one foe, the book points us towards the real evil, Sauron.
But I for one find this chapter quite confusing and the first couple of times I read it I felt like it sort of broke off very randomly.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 11, 2004 08:52
Just a point of information here. This is not fromthe books we are reading but I thought that it was interesting.
Pippin's use of the palantir involved a great deal of luck. From other sources (Unfinished Tales) i've learned that the palantir Pippin absconded with only gives you a view if it is oriented properly. Pippin had to place the palantir down in just the right position, be looking into the proper face of it, and had to be looking at it just at a time when Sauron also hppened to be looking into the palantir in his possession in order for their interaction to take place.
Figwit
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 12, 2004 05:12
Very interesting Pb! It's the same question over and over again: was it chance, luck - or fate?
arcticfox
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 16, 2004 01:28
*spoilers for Sil & UT*

If you've read the Silmarilion or Unfinished Tales you will know that the Valar are very involved in what is happening..it's just my humble opinion that they have had something to do with the apparently "chance" happenings..Pippin looking into the palantir was very crucial in drawing Sauron's eye from his own lands..Pip was sort of "set-up" as a decoy (so-to-speak) at that point..thus the race to Minas Tirith because as Gandalf says that's where Sauron would go himself if he were in that position.. again "drawing the eye"...just my opinion...(I also agree that Hobbit strength has alot to do with it)

[Edited on 17/3/2004 by Figwit]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 17, 2004 08:51
There definitely is a feeling of a "higher power" influencing things so that, a character gets to the right place at the right time to do something that later turns out to be important. And, indeed, earlier in the story (FOTR, the chapter The Shadow of the Past), Gandalf even says to Frodo, about Bilbo finding the Ring:
Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.


And yet, if just one person would make the wrong choice...
arcticfox
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 17, 2004 11:02
hope this isn't going off too much but at the time that Pip looks into the palantir he becomes a very key character and is in as much (if not more) danger as Frodo and Sam. presumably Sauron "sees" Pipin and could recognize him. There is much more that I want to say but would be a big spoiler for ROTK...so I'll wait and say it then but those who've already read it can put 2 and 2 together..
arcticfox
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Post RE: 3.XI. The Palantír
on: March 25, 2004 07:49
as I suggested the question perhaps I should make a statment on it. Mostly in defence of Pippin. I don't think that his looking into the palantir can be entirely put down to "Took curiosity". I get the distinct impression the he nearly did not have a choice. That Sauron's control over that palantir was so strong that as soon as he handled it he was inexplicably drawn to it.There are a few statements that I think back this up as Gandalf says that even he found it hard to resist the temptation to look into it and tells Aragorn that Pip should not know where it has been bestowed. That would seem to indicate that once contact had been made Pippin would still find it very hard to resist despite the "burned fingers" syndrome that he had. This could also explain why Saruman was also "snared". I also think that handling the Palantir had to do with Pip's sudden discontent with the trip as he had plenty of opportunity to complain to his friends before hand but did not.
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