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Evenstar
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Post Grima Wormtongue
on: September 22, 2002 02:13
***BOOK SPOILER WARNING***

Consider yourself warned.

Dark characters tend to interest me; it's interesting to see what makes them tick. Why they're doing what they're doing, etc. I mean, were they always evil? Why did they become evil? Wormtongue is, I think, one of those characters. (Then there's the fact that I rather like the actor who will be playing him *end of off topic*)

In order to actually get to be advisor to Theoden, he must have had some good qualities. However minimal. Then there's the fact that he's "in love" with Eowyn. Is that just... twisted or did he actually feel something akin to warmth?

Thoughts?

-Evenstar
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 22, 2002 02:56
Actually what Wormtongue does is a common occurrence- whenever you see anyone in a position of power, whether it be in politics or business, there are always those who try to gain their favour at the expense of others. Rather than give good adviice they cast doubt on the character of others they feel may become between them and the leader..
Wormtongue is a particukarly good name for this type of person.
Until I read your thread i had never considered how common Wormtongues personality was . so thanks for getting me to think about it.:blush:
Iarlachien
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 22, 2002 03:04
I do wonder about Grima Wormtongue. There's that passage in ROTK, where Saruman says: "No evil? Oh no! Even when he sneaks out at night, it is only to look at the stars."

Makes you wonder if Saruman was just using a poetical exagerration, or what.
PervyOrcFancier
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 22, 2002 03:14
everyone has a touch of innocence.
k
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 23, 2002 04:27
Then there's the fact that I rather like the actor who will be playing him *end of off topic*)


lol have you seen the grima post in the casting gallery.

anyhow- i think that grima must have been an ok guy to start with. after all theoden isnt stupid so he wouldnt have got some complete wierdo to be his advisor

perhaps his situation was simelar to that of maeglin in the silmarillion, being in love with but not able to have the kings daughter. so instead he used his power to evil ends.

its a shame he turned out that way, but i cant help but wonder about theoden- in the book eomer days something along the lines of

"the men of rohan do not tell lies and therefore recognise when another is telling them"

so i wonder why theoden didnt realise wormtongue was lying to him

Evenstar
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 27, 2002 01:59
its a shame he turned out that way, but i cant help but wonder about theoden- in the book eomer days something along the lines of

"the men of rohan do not tell lies and therefore recognise when another is telling them"

so i wonder why theoden didnt realise wormtongue was lying to him


perhaps because, as brad dourif put it in the video off the official site, he is "sapping the king's energy" (or something like that at any rate). i tend to think if you're strength is being sapped, you won't notice things as much.

(yes, i have seen the grima post in the casting gallery... i think)

k
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: September 27, 2002 02:12
(yes, i have seen the grima post in the casting gallery... i think


lol well there is a nice pic of brad dourif in there now...


anyway- i guess that could be right- which backs up my theory that grima wasnt always bad- after all if he was a lier when theoden first came across him he would have known right!
Evenstar
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: October 24, 2002 03:20
The Muse has speared me again. (My Muse looks like Athena)

I see it deep in the mists of my imagination... a story about Grima. His past. What happened. Why he turned evil. Etc.

However, in order to begin seriously thinking I need information. So, here's one REALLY general question:

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT GRIMA PRE-LOTR? (if anything)

Little help?
Thanks!

Cheers,
Evenstar
Gandalf666
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: October 24, 2002 03:30
The only thing i know is that he was the son of Gálmód. My poor lil´Grima :cry::cry::cry:

[Edited on 25/10/2002 by Gandalf666]
Evenstar
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: October 28, 2002 09:25
Evenstar will now demonstrate her ignorance:

WHO?

heh heh... :dizzy:
Gandalf666
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: October 29, 2002 12:49
Go to:

www.glyphweb.com/arda/

The Encyclopedia of Arda, Evenstar
The_Lady_of_the_Wood
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 07, 2002 11:49
To me, Grima was a great character. He influenced a major part of the latter half of the story. His evil influence over the king and his companionship with Saruman was extremely well written and very interesting.

I love how Grima gets his final revenge on the man who brutalized him.

R.I.P Grima
Loremistress
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 11, 2002 06:45
I'm SO HAPPY there's atopic like this!!!!
(pardon the enthusiam)

Well, lately I have had in interest in Grima myself. You see, I really feel sorry for him. I almost wonder what would have happened if he had been able to stay as Frodo had offered, and Frodo was maybe to straightten him out a little? He almost straightened out Gollum, but Sam just HAD to open his mouth.

(no I kid, I really do love Sam)

"Poor old Grima always beaten and cursed" I wonder if Sruman did beat him once in a while?
Anyone know how old he was?

Remember, noyhing is elvil in the beginning, not even Morgoth.
Grima had to have some good still left in him somewhere!

Actually to tell you the truth, I am thinking of writing a fan fiction which will be a short autobiography of Grima, told from his perspective. Written as he sits in the Halls of Mandos waiting perhaps for a second chance....:blush:

Oh and Gandalf666? I fell the exact same way!

Poot little guy!
Gandalf666
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 12, 2002 05:57


Oh and Gandalf666? I fell the exact same way!

Poot little guy!



Ohhh Loremistress i feel so understood...that´s a great comfort to me *gives her a big hug while weeping* :cry:
delilah84au
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 12, 2002 02:26
**BOOK SPOILERS**

I, on the otherhand, feel no pity for Grima because he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, he may have taken orders but it was up to him to accept them - and the way he killed Chief, stabbed in the back while he was asleep - this shows no morals or conscience on his part. No, I believe that he got what was coming to him.
Thallianuwen
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 14, 2002 06:02
breaking away from the "Once was nice" Grima theory, maybe Theoden didn't have any choice. maybe Grima was the only one who can do what he does...give good advice.

Maybe his words were like honey, but turned out bitter when it reached the stomach. A lot of people are like that too.
Evenstar
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 17, 2002 10:45
I really had no idea this topic was going to generate such discussion. Woo-hoo!!

**BOOK SPOILERS**

I, on the otherhand, feel no pity for Grima because he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, he may have taken orders but it was up to him to accept them - and the way he killed Chief, stabbed in the back while he was asleep - this shows no morals or conscience on his part. No, I believe that he got what was coming to him.


I agree with that. When you're given orders, you still have a choice. Granted, refusing the orders might not have a very pretty result, but in the end it's still up to you, isn't it?

I also like Thallianuwen's idea. Tolkien does describe him as a man with a "pale, wise face". And you wouldn't exactly last very long as the king's advisor if you were lousy, would you? Sugar-coated arsenic... Sounds like Grima.

I'm not exactly certain if he was good once, but he was most certainly human - even those who are evil feel human emotions (unless they're totally demented), for good or for ill. That, at least, is what i'd like to write about. Once I get my life back.

Oh yeah... I read an interview with Brad Dourif where he said that he and Ms. Boyens, et al., sat down and came up with a backstory for Grima in an effort to make him more human. Any word on this or will we hear about it in the movie?

Only 2 more weeks of school...

AND ONE MONTH UNTIL TTT!!!
Loremistress
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 23, 2002 10:16
Evenstar, was there a part in that interview you read where Brad is talking about making his acting look good and saying "if I think about a ham sandwich, its usually good."?

BTW For the sake of a fanfiction I may write, anyone have any specualtion of how old Grima may have been when the whole lying to Theoden/treachery/ sucking up to saruman thing may have happened?

*Loremistrees i almost taken aback when Gandalf666 throws his arms around her, but she then softens and hugs back shedding a few tears of her own, grateful someone understands.*:blush:
Evenstar
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 24, 2002 01:13
Loremistress, yes, there was a part about a ham sandwich in the interview I read. The interview was in FantasyWorlds Magazine (I think - I don't have it in front of me)

As for Grima's age... that would be helpful for me too. I'm assuming he's in his fourties.
Loremistress
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 01, 2002 04:57
Well....

Brad Dourif is 52 ( I nearly fainted when I found, he looks younger) which would make him about 50 when the movie was made. He's only about six years younger that Bernard Hill (Theoden). For Grima, that seems a little old, forty-something sounds about right.:drool:
Loremistress
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 04, 2002 10:54
Not to double post but.....

Gandalf666 this is for you (and the others)


I read somewhere (don't remember where) that while the Rohorrim were primarily flaxen-haired, there were rare cases of dark-haired Rohirrim. However, this usually meant that they had some Gondorian in them. Thus, Grima may have indeed had dark hair, but if that was true, he prabably had a strain or two of Gondorian/Numenorian in him. :blush:
Wolfie-thu
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 31, 2002 07:45
They only clue I know about Grima's age at the time of the war of the ring is this: back in Tolkien's earlier drafts when Grima was just some random counseller, he was described as being old. However, once he evolved into the dear Wormie we all know and love(:love, Christopher Tolkien says his father crossed out all examples of Grima being described as old. So while he may not be a spring chicken, Grima is most definitly younger than Theoden.
And as to why Theoden trusted Grima, Gandalf says that Grima didonce serve the King faithfully. Theoden even comments later that he misses his old counseler. And if I calculated correctly(not very good with numbers :blush, Theoden had only been ill for about five years before Gandalf healed him. Tolkien himself says that part of the King's illness could simply be old age.

"Poor old Grima always beaten and cursed" I wonder if Sruman did beat him once in a while?

Yep, most likely. I mean, we see Saruman wack him with his staff on numerous occasions for no reason whatsoever, so imagine the sort of punishment he would have dealt after Grima had thrown the palantir? And by the end, Grima was crawling on all fours; most people don't do that unless they've been seriously debased. I wonder if his quote about always being "beaten and cursed" could also be a clue as to Grima's history? The backstory Brad Dourif created for his character involves Grima being bullied when younger, and I thought this too even before reading his theory. I could even go so far as to say his family might have been abusive; his father's name means "one with a mind fit for the gallows", after all.
Actually to tell you the truth, I am thinking of writing a fan fiction which will be a short autobiography of Grima, told from his perspective. Written as he sits in the Halls of Mandos waiting perhaps for a second chance....

If ou ever end up writing it, I'd love to read it.

And Evenstar, I've done a fair amount of research on Grima's character(as you can probably see ) and would be happy to provide any information I can.

Must stop writing...post becoming ridicuously long...:blush:
Alya
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: November 07, 2004 01:52
While I feel I am interrupting an adorably large party of Grima-heads, I think I must remind everyone of that old bit of wisdom, "Reap what is sown." Those who do evil to get to positions of power often fall hard and fast - as proven by Sauron, Saruman, Grima, etc.
Quickbeame
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 11, 2004 09:22
I never really liked Grima for what he did. my guess is that he was employed by Saruman when he took over Theoden's mind, i mean, who would hire an ugly guy like Grima to be an advisor? Grima's age? who knows, could be maybe at least 30 or so......the again, maybe not. but him going after the shield maiden of the house of Eorl.......gross and wrong. (gets ready to be blown to simtherines by grima fans) I personally think he deserved what he got, if i was there i would have shot him 100 times more......:evil:. but then again, if Frodo gave him pity and mercy, maybe i would go a little more light, so 50 times over. such a cringing and pitiful abomination, but thats what he gets for casting his pearls before swine, he only reaped what he sowed. i think the way tolkien displays the characters who fail to see what could have been another way, like Denethor, Grima, etc. makes the books all the better.

[Edited on 11/12/2004 by Quickbeame]
FatalBeauty
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: February 09, 2005 11:03
Dark characters tend to interest me; it's interesting to see what makes them tick. Why they're doing what they're doing, etc. I mean, were they always evil? Why did they become evil? Wormtongue is, I think, one of those characters. (Then there's the fact that I rather like the actor who will be playing him *end of off topic*)

In order to actually get to be advisor to Theoden, he must have had some good qualities. However minimal. Then there's the fact that he's "in love" with Eowyn. Is that just... twisted or did he actually feel something akin to warmth?
-Evenstar


Yeah, Gríma interests me because he is a wicked and sinister character. But he is also good. This kind of characters are fascinating and mystical (for example Gríma and prof Snape from Harry Potter). They are villains but not entirely.

Gríma likes Éowyn; I think that's true love. You can see very desparate love in his eyes (I mean in the TTT film), and I think Gríma really DOES care for her. I mean I think he really is ready to listen to Éowyn, comfort her in those evil times and support her. Basically, Gríma is a good man but because Saruman corrupts Wormtongue and eases his way to get Éowyn (she is the "promised prize"), of course that kind of offer tempts Gríma. Or maybe he just has no other choice...

In the book, there's hardly any relationship between Gríma and Éowyn. So I'm very glad that they made that "so fair, so cold" scene in the movie. At the same time that's good for the movie because the audience can see some relationship between the supporting characters instead of the main characters.
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: February 12, 2005 05:04
I think we need to be very careful about proclaiming that Grima's "love" for Eowyn is in anyway redeaming. I once remarked to my Shakespeare instructor, "But Iago says he loves Desdemona..." She replied, "But what is 'love' from Iago worth?" I think this is a point well taken. People like Grima may WANT to love and to be loved, but the truth is they have no knowledge of the emotion and therefore couldn't do it...or in most cases recieve it. The capacity for love simply does not exisit. This doesn't mean they can't be pitied. I DO deeply pity Grima...he'd be different if he knew how; but he doesn't. Grima, like Gollum, is totally self-absorbed. There's nothing that matters outside themselves and the wrongs they've suffered, and their self pity.

Gandalf says that the Ring found Gollum too "small and mean" to accomplish it's goals. In other words, the Ring knew Gollum would never leave his sub-terranean world because his own needs were being met to the limit of his ability to meet them. I think Grima is similar, "small and mean." His only chance at self-worth was serving Saruman. He can't even let Saruman go once his powers are gone (despite Frodo's selfless offer) because Saruman's badinage is better than the nothingness of his own self-opinion and he knows he has no ability or real desire to change at that point in his life.

It's so incredibly sad....I think one of the sadest parts of the whole trilogy is when Saruman degrades Wormtongue in front of Frodo by intimating that Grima ate Lotho...but it DOES seem to reach the LAST human part left in Grima...the part that can feel hatred.
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: February 20, 2005 04:58
Or maybe he just has no other choice...

Nah There is always a choice, though it may be invisble to some

People like Grima may WANT to love and to be loved, but the truth is they have no knowledge of the emotion and therefore couldn't do it...or in most cases recieve it. The capacity for love simply does not exisit. This doesn't mean they can't be pitied.

I don't know, I do believe that deep down Grìma would be able to love, it's one of the things that make him, us, human. Even if the love is mostly for himself, which I highly doubt it is, in fact I find it quite possible to believe that he was not so fond of himself.... At least in some ways.... As for loving another person.... well it's always difficult to tell, as well as whether the love is worth having or not... It depends on whether we see love as one of the purist and noblest feelings of the world or not... If it is that then surely it should be valued, even if it is felt by a creature not normally thought of as worthy of anything.... We ca't really tell about Grìma's emotions though -we can't tell what he feels for Eowyn, whether we should 'accept his love as being worthy' or not... There are many kinds of love -and the way the love is shown also varies with who has the emotion. We might not recognise Grìma's feelings for what they're worth, but might not this simply be because we don't fully grasp his complete character. Maybe he loves as much as a person with his character is able to love at that exact moment -should't it be prised for what it is then, rather than be compared with other loves felt by perhaps more 'noble' persons.....:dizzy: That the love is different -and by the majority not thought of as priceable -does not make it non-existant...
Hîr_i_Chorvath
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 06, 2009 09:16
Grima is without a doubt my favourite character; I love they way Tolkien blends in him good and evil, which lets people debate about him all day.
For my part, I believe he does love Eowyn, in much the same way she loves Aragorn - desperately (without hope) longing for something other than he actually has.
In the book his character is portrayed as more evil than in the movie; but also more pitiful.

The theory that he was bullied and beaten as a child works quite well - it would explain his hunger for power, and also the way he clings to Saruman even after the power has gone, even as he is maltreated.
I don't blame him for the death of Lotho - you saw him at the end of the book, and the craling way he stays with Saruman. There's no way he had the choice of NOT doing what Saruman says. And this, I think, is because of his betrayal of Rohan, and his deep shame of what he had done. He can't go back because he is ashamed of what he did.

That is all for now. I will stick around.
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 07, 2009 10:40
Isn't it interesting the way Tolkien repeatedly makes us consider whether a person has choice?
Spragh
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 14, 2009 01:37
It is interesting,but,sadly,i rarely can remember the bad person getin well.In fact,one of the biggest hopes in all of my hopes when im reading the book is that,to evil man become good again.It is the biggest battle for me.So it is most exiting for me as well.Sadly,it almoust never hapens...but when it does,Whau!!!Fight of the century!!!Remember,all evil,was born in the first losten battle in someones heart.It is the very first fight ever made.No swords,no spears,no axes.Hehehe.And...no past expirience.Heavy...But,it is harder to go back.
Spragh
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Post RE: Grima Wormtongue
on: December 14, 2009 01:47
Isn't it interesting the way Tolkien repeatedly makes us consider whether a person has choice?


is interesting,but,sadly,i rarely can remember the bad person getin well.In fact,one of the biggest hopes in all of my hopes when im reading the book is that,to evil man become good again.It is the biggest battle for me.So it is most exiting for me as well.Sadly,it almoust never hapens...but when it does,Whau!!!Fight of the century!!!Remember,all evil,was born in the first losten battle in someones heart.It is the very first fight ever made.No swords,no spears,no axes.Hehehe.And...no past expirience.Heavy...But,it is harder to go back.
cirdaneth
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on: June 13, 2014 04:30
We have not heard from Spragh for a long time. I suspect he is in Eastern Europe and that there are very dark things in his experience. Yet he hopes and tries to understand the nature of evil through Tolkien. I'm bumping this for further discussion and to say Hi Spragh, if he's out there.
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on: June 13, 2014 10:43
Two thoughts:
I'm German, and I have read quite a bit about the Nazi period in Germany: in histories, biographies etc. One Impression I got that during that time, a lot of people got into positions of derivative power by becoming members of the Nazi party (NSDAP), of the SA or SS or Gestapo or whatever, who would never have had a chance for any kind of power except in this situation. People who had a lot of issues, felt they had not been treated like they should have been during the Weimar Republic, people with a lust for revenge. Small-minded, narrow-minded people.
Second: there are two ways to get ahead: be better than others AND (more important!!!) have those in power notice this. The hard way. Or try to make your competitors look bad. The sly schemer version. The Dallas & Denver version you (don't look at me!!!) saw on TV (and the innumerable clones). This one is 100% dependent on those in power lending your sly lies an ear. And it is much safer for you to stay hidden in the background and not be identified as the source of what must per definition be rumors.

Food for thought, I hope.

[Edited on 06/14/2014 by Gandolorin]
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cirdaneth
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on: June 14, 2014 12:26
Thank you Gandolorin. That's it in a nutshell, and although the site rules forbid current political discussion, we each have our thoughts. Well said and well put.
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