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dirk_math
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Post Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 06:39
I have a very advanced Quenya-question:

When one emphasizes an adjective it is put after the noun to which it belongs e.g. Cenin alda alta 'I see a very big tree'.
In lesson 17 of the Ardalambion course it is recommended that when one declines such a combination, the case-ending should be applied to the last declinable word: Lelyan alda altanna 'I go to the very high tree'.
This is all very clear for adjectives that end on -a.

For adjectives on -ëa it is also clear, because in that case one should apply the ending not to the adjective, but the last decinable word before it (which is most of the time the noun itself): Lelyan aldanna laurëa 'I go to the golden tree'.

But now I'm coming to my question: how should one decline an adjective that ends on -n. The reason for my doubt is that in Parma Eldalamberon 14 it is stated that when one uses such an adjective as latin a noun, it's declension is based on the stem latind-, e.g. I latindi utúlier 'the free have come', nórë latindion 'the land of the free'.

Now when such an adjective is declined as last declinable word, should one use the normal -i plural as an adjective before applying the case endings, or the -ndi form: Tulin
neri latinillor or Tulin neri latindillor 'I come from the free men'?
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 07:18
The word free in the phrase 'I come from the free men' is not used as a noun despite the fact that it has a case ending. It is describing the true noun neri and the case ending belongs to that noun. I think the rule about adjectival nouns with stem forms in -nd- would here not apply.

Unfortunatly, I do not have Parma Eldalamberon 14 so I am not totally sure about this rule.

But, if I am right about the above point then another problem presents itself. Adjectives in -in sometimes seem to have longer forms in -ina. I would use the longer form for the translation. The adjective is also inflected to plural so I would add the case ending to latinë.

I would therefore translate your full phrase as Tulin neri latinellor.

Of course, you could always re-arrange the phrase to make the noun final -> Tulin latinë nerillor
dirk_math
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 07:53
Ok, maybe latin is a bad choice as there exists indeed a form latina. But most adjectives on -n don't have such a form.

And of course free in the phrase is not used as a noun, I did not state that. What I mean is that such adjectives take an extra -d when used as nouns, and that's why I wonder whether they also would take this -d if they are declined as adjectives themselves.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 08:26
I would treat them as "proper" adjectives, without a stemform with an extra consonant.
In the case of latin, I would choose latinello or latinenna (maybe even latinna??????? very hypothetical).

[Edited on 28/3/2004 by Eruantalincë]
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 09:07
As I said, I do not havethat issue, so I am unsure of the rule and only have what you explained to go on.

I do not think that an adjective would take a form in -nd- (even if it is inflected like a noun) so long as it is still an adjective.

I also think that the case ending should be added to the form the adjective would take when connected to that noun (sometimes that might not be the basic form of the adjective, like the plural for example).
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 09:28
Still, I think one cannot deny what's in the course. I believe the source is quite reliable Choosing not to at least think about it, is in my opinion an easy (though not bad) way.

I like to think about such things. It shows that Tolkien's languages were and still are "alive". One of course does not have to apply to all these possibilities, for to some people, it might be very confusing which I can perfectly understand.

Do not get me wrong, Lambengolmo, it is not an insult. I am not even saying that *you* are wrong or lazy. Perhaps it is just a difference between "classic" and "modern" use of Quenya.
Lambengolmo
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 10:12
I think you misunderstand me. Adjectives that are used as nouns probably do end in -nd- (I will admit that), but adjectives that recive case endings just because of the last declinable word rule are often not used as nouns and therefore I think that they would not display the ending.

Unless, of course, it specifically states in Parma Eldalamberon that all adjectives in -in have stems in -ind-.
dirk_math
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Post RE: Last declinable word
on: March 28, 2004 09:40
Indeed, if one takes a look at Tolkien's writing it says that in Qenya all adjectives ending on -n, should take -nd in all other forms. So this would also apply to the ordinary plural.

But of course this is note Tolkien made between 1920 and 1930 so it doesn't necessarily say anything about 3rd Age Quenya.

When I however reread Lesson 4 of Fauskanger's course, he stated that the i-plural of these adjectives was an assumption because there are no examples available. So in my opinion this means that as long as there are no texts available about more recent Quenya-versions, we should use the -nd- stem for all adjectives ending in -n.
Yassë engë lómë, anarties calali.
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