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Figwit
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Post 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: March 29, 2004 12:13
1) Tolkien tries very hard to depict this part of the world properly. Does it remind you of something? What atmosphere dominates this chapter?

2) Which of the main themes of LOTR return here and in which characters?

3) The idea of taking a different road, one suggested by Gollum, doesn't seem at all appealing. Why does Frodo choose to follow anyway?

4) The Easterlings are the first 'evil' race we meet - how are they depicted?

PbHf's Quote of the Week can be found here and deals with the knowledge of Gollum. The second quote deals with Sam and hope/despair.

If anyone has any other questions, please feel free to pm me

[Edited on 29/3/2004 by Figwit]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 01, 2004 07:52
2) Which of the main themes of LOTR return here and in which characters?

Most clearly to see is the determination to finish a task, how hopeless it may seem, in the thoughts and actions of Frodo. "if there is only one way, then I must take it. What comes after must come." Also there is pity, and giving another opportunity, in Frodo's actions toward Gollum.

And, one theme I see in the whole LOTR, and in this chapter as well, is making the right choice in respect to the outcome of the actions. Frodo probably wouldn't have survived very long if he had tried to enter Mordor somewhere close to the Black Gate; accepting Gollum's suggestion about the other route buys them more time, and perhaps a better chance to survive. I think this answers question #3 as well...
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 02, 2004 03:46
I hadn't thought of those two when I drew up that question, Morwinyoniel, but I especially like the idea of making the right choice. The theme of choice indeed is one of the main themes of LOTR, imho, and you do find it very prominent in this chapter: not just Frodo's choice to trust Gollum and go to Minas Morgul, but also Sam's choice to trust his master.

My first thought with this question is the idea of trust and fate - Frodo seems very pessimistic about his journey and its ending, but still he moves on, besides the fact that he believes it doomed from the beginning.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 04, 2004 01:42
Actually, I don't believe that what you call "trust" and "fate" is very far from what I call "determination". Frodo has decided to go on and try, to whatever end, because he feels that this task is appointed to him. If he succeeds, good; if not, at least he has tried.

[Edited on 4/4/2004 by Morwinyoniel]
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 04, 2004 10:55
Yup, you're right. I just always have to pull those apart (fate on the one hand, determination on the other) because in my mind they're not necessarily conceptually linked .
janora
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 05, 2004 11:11
1) Tolkien tries very hard to depict this part of the world properly. Does it remind you of something? What atmosphere dominates this chapter?

It reminds me of what Saruman has done to Isengard, the atmosphere is dark and frightening. All around the air is poison to any but the Orcs and Sauron's other creatures.
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 06, 2004 02:19
It's funny you should say that janora. I always felt the lands of Mordor (and around it) felt like they were natural deserts, and that Sauron went there because they were. But I guess it would make a lot more sense if they became wasted after Sauron settled there, like you suggested. I wonder why that never occurred to me?
janora
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Post RE: 4.III. The Black Gate Is Closed
on: April 08, 2004 11:48
It only occured to me after reading the book for the seventh or eight time Figwit, but mostly it is when Treebeard is telling Merry and Pippin the story of how the Entwives were lost. He describes how wonderful their gardens were, but when they returned to find the Entwives during the war between Sauron and the Men of the Sea they found only a desert where the gardens had all been burnt and uprooted and was now called the Brown Lands.
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