Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Lord of the Rings » Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
Author Topic:
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 05, 2004 05:18
FromTTT Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from, and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace...



Sam had been in battle before, in Moria, but in that case the enemy was obvious- orcs etc. This time things weren't so obvious and it has a different effect on him..

[Edited on 6/4/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 06, 2004 02:34
As I wrote in my journal, one of the reasons why I like this chapter is because of the very realistic view it gives of what war is really like. Deprived from it's almost cartoonesk, literary aspects; war really is something that gets on your nerves in the sense that you can never really relax.

I also like those lines specifically because it returns us to Sam and common sense Hobbitness: concern for others, the ability to see the good in others is what discerns a good man from a bad one.
Luthien_Telperien
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 06, 2004 06:30
I see this particular passage, along with the image of the Dead Marshes, as very important in finding the balance in Tolkien's view of war. It is easy to look only at the main events of Return of the King and see Tolkien as very pro-war, but these passages help to balance that view and can help us also, I think, to understand Frodo's pacifism at the end of ROTK.
legolasfan27
Council Member
Posts: 74
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 07, 2004 09:29
The effect this sight has on Sam is one I guess many people will relate to. Sam's wondering what brought the Man there shows empathy, because I'm sure Sam himself might have wished he hadn't come on this journey and could have stayed home in peace. But Sam's motivations are different, though no less complex, than the ones he imagines may have brought this Man here-an evil heart? threats and lies? - so he doesn't think of wanting to go home and staying there in peace as relating to himself just now...
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 07, 2004 09:35
Well, I think at this point Sam too is wishing he had stayed there in peace - the episode with the cooking shows as much - but to return was never really an option for him, so that wouldn't cross his mind. But that's only my opinion of course.
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 08, 2004 10:35
Every army tends to dehumanize their enemy; not even the Gondorians were without guilt in this respect. But Sam, an outsider, sees that there are actually quite similar human beings on both sides. This scene, along with a few others, very effectively deglorifies war.

[Edited on 8/4/2004 by Morwinyoniel]
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 08, 2004 12:00
Every army tends to dehumanize their enemy;


Actually, PJ is guilty of doing the very same thing: a lot of aspects of Uruk-hai culture that we discussed when reading The Two Towers were left out of the movie. That's one of the things I appreciate about Tolkien's version of 'goblins': they do have a culture, and some sort of honour.
legolasfan27
Council Member
Posts: 74
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 08, 2004 12:23
Yes, the Uruk-Hai were rather evil in the movies weren't they? Still, I didn't find much redeeming in their culture as expressed in The Two Towers, either. They seemed bent on destruction just for the sake of it, not just to achieve an objective or in obedience to orders.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 08, 2004 12:55
Well, it wasn't as much redeeming as individualising: they had some kind of culture, a hierarchy, a way of communicating, an honour code, respect (for Aragorn for instance) based on more than fear... You get the feeling of sentient beings, who are able to think and judge and even make moral decisions, rather than beasts. On the one hand, that makes their actions even worse, but on the other hand they become more than 'the bad guy'.
At least, that's how I see it.
Luthien_Telperien
Council Member
Posts: 39
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 12, 2004 04:52
This seems to be one of the places in which the Silmarillion helps to flesh things out. I'm reading it now (for the first time) and just finished the part about the creation of the orcs. That there is historical reason for their various hatreds - for their being what they are - and that those hatreds are *theirs*, not just given to them, helps to define them a bit further, I think.

That said, the various enemies are generally very little individualized in Tolkien's work that I've found. Without at least a fourth volume - and an hour more of film - could it really have been done, though? And perhaps we're also looking for more novel and less mythology and legend by looking for this sort of individuation.

(Okay - I really should be working!)
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week- April 5th, 2004 [4.IV.H&SR]
on: April 12, 2004 09:42
That said, the various enemies are generally very little individualized in Tolkien's work that I've found. Without at least a fourth volume - and an hour more of film - could it really have been done, though? And perhaps we're also looking for more novel and less mythology and legend by looking for this sort of individuation.


I've always found it was done splendidly for someone who didn't intend to write someting pyshcologically correct - if you take a look at Saruman, Gríma or Boromir you'll find that there's a lot more to them than Tolkien himself acknowledges himself.

For a myth or legend (which was indeed what he wanted to write) this work has great psychological depth and accuracy, which reminds me a bit of the Greek mythologies.

I don't know why I wrote all this actually :rolling:
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email