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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 12, 2004 06:18
Sam again
But its a pity that folk as talk abut fighting the enemy can't let others do their bit in their own way without interfering. He'd be mightily pleased, if he could see you now. Think he'd got a new friend , he would."



Sam seems to have simple way of looking at things . He also seeems absolutely fearlesss in his defence of Frodo and his mission. He knows what his master needs to do and has no doubt that all foes of the Enemy should help- so he will tolerate no intereference from Faramir and his company of rangers from Ithilien.

[Edited on 26/4/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 12, 2004 09:48
This part is exactly one of the reasons why I don't like Sam: he's just ...wrong... at times. I mean, anyone can tell from their previous conversation that Frodo is very respectful of this man for some reason, and that Faramir in turn is not some dodgy guy. I mean... really. *rolls eyes*
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 14, 2004 08:11
OK...gonna "quarrel" with you on that one...Sam is hasty in making this statement, but surely understandably so? I mean, they are in [/i]Ithilien[i] in the Enemy's backyard so to speak, and while Faramir doesn't know why Frodo is being evasive, Sam does. Sam says, and rightly so IMHO, that Faramir ought to say whatever he's saying without so much shillyshallying that could find them still debating while Orcs could descend on them any minute. While Faramir seems confident and, maybe to Sam's eyes, oblivious to the danger of their surroundings, Sam isn't...He's far from home, aware of constant danger, his master and friend is carrying a dangerous burden and he becomes impatient with Faramir out of loyalty and fear. Plus, Faramir himself later agrees that he was unwise to press Frodo "in such an hour and place".

That said, *deep breath*, I agree that Faramir is no dodgy fellow. He comes across as shrewd, patient and understanding, courteous even in circumstances where such a quality can easily be shed and not be missed...

[Edited on 14/4/2004 by legolasfan27]
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 14, 2004 10:01
I can certaintly see your point (it's a good one) about Sam 'seeing' the danger and presuming Faramir doesn't.
But on the other hand, the previous chapter ends with an account by Mablung of who Faramir is (well, what he is: a captain) and the attack on the Haradrim soldiers. Somehow that should have sunk in with Sam.

I can't help but find this bit a typical example of how Sam can only be focussed on one thing: his Master. For the same reason he is unable to see Sméagol as Frodo does, and he also seems blind to the parallels between them and Frodo's need to 'save' his Fellow-ringbearer (or see him saved).

What Faramir does at this point is, imho, completely natural and logical: it's what Éomer does when he meets Aragorn. The Hobbits are on foreign territory, what did Sam think? That sneaking around would be rewarded with a right to secrecy? There are local laws, local problems...

I just don't like Sam, and this is one of the reasons why: he's blind to anything but this quest, while Frodo isn't.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 16, 2004 12:16
We'll have to agree to disagree on Sam...I find his focus on his Master perhaps the best example of friendship and loyalty I relate to since the Biblical David and Jonathan. It's true, he is tunnel-visioned, but in such a way that I can't find fault with it. Gollum's and Sauron's tunnel vision focus on getting their own way and dominating others. Sam just wants Frodo to be comfortable and happy.

I find Frodo's desire to save Gollum because he is a fellow-Ringbearer just a bit too "goody-two-shoes" for my taste, to be honest. *Pauses for howls of dismay from Frodo's fans*
Some people are too bent and too twisted by evil to warrant even trying to save them, because they are not interested in being saved, they just want what they want...
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 17, 2004 02:08
I find Frodo's desire to save Gollum because he is a fellow-Ringbearer just a bit too "goody-two-shoes" for my taste, to be honest. *Pauses for howls of dismay from Frodo's fans*
Some people are too bent and too twisted by evil to warrant even trying to save them, because they are not interested in being saved, they just want what they want...


Well, I'm not really a Frodo fan nor am I a christian, but I've always felt that this was Tolkien's catholic background speaking: the need for empathy, for forgiveness and how this is in itself a reward. Because if it weren't for Frodo's ability to be kind to Gollum, to give him a second chance, his entire quest would have failed: without knowing it, his kindness and pity had their place in the greater scheme of things.

It's one of those themes that I find really important: the idea that Frodo needs to believe for himself that Gollum can be saved. He's not just trying to be a good guy and trying to save Sméagol, he also trying to save himself. But that's just my opinion, of course .
Luthien_Telperien
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 17, 2004 06:44
I agree with Figwit about Frodo's motivation here. The rightness of that view is proved in the end - but how easily it could have not been! (OK, that was a really bad sentence.)

I've been thinking about Sam, and it seems to me that Tolkien needed Sam to be simpler. In part, this is the class system playing itself out, with all the stereotypes that are involved there - the noble (in all ways) aristocratic, the simple but loyal and trustworthy servant. But Tolkien lets us see both the pros and the cons of those types: Sam, with his simple view of life, may not be able to see Faramir's complexity, but he can see the extent of Gollum's evil, which Frodo, with his more complex view of the world, underplays. That Frodo's mercy proves to be his saving in the end does not, I think, undercut Sam's essential rightness in his understanding of Gollum.

And, of course, Frodo's trust in Gollum has not only psychological and spiritual/ethical sources; it is also driven by narrative - unless Frodo is to prove to be, in the end, stronger than the Ring, completely (and, I think, unbelievable) faultless, there has to be a narrative out.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 17, 2004 08:25
Because if it weren't for Frodo's ability to be kind to Gollum, to give him a second chance, his entire quest would have failed: without knowing it, his kindness and pity had their place in the greater scheme of things.

It's one of those themes that I find really important: the idea that Frodo needs to believe for himself that Gollum can be saved. He's not just trying to be a good guy and trying to save Sméagol, he also trying to save himself. But that's just my opinion, of course .

In this I quite agree with you, oddly enough. Frodo is trying to save Gollum because he hopes this means he (Frodo) can be saved as well. I suppose my reaction to his overlooking Gollum's quite obvious "faults" is my own cynicism. I just can't quite understand why, even with his empathy and mercy, he can't grasp just how dangerous this creature is. I disagree that kindness and pity has to blind you to someone's faults, I think they should just make you willing to look beyond them. Then again, maybe that's precisely what Frodo is doing...but he's so..so...naive! Anyway, it all plays it's part in the end...

I also agree with you Luthien, about the class distinctions being made by the way Sam and Frodo's relationship is presented. I'm something of an Anglophile when it comes to my Literature tastes, so Sam's attitudes are quite familiar and expected.
Luthien_Telperien
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 17, 2004 01:07
I also agree with you Luthien, about the class distinctions being made by the way Sam and Frodo's relationship is presented. I'm something of an Anglophile when it comes to my Literature tastes, so Sam's attitudes are quite familiar and expected.


I'm the same way - all those years of Brideshead Revisited and Pride and Prejudice could well have made a difference in my expectations, too. As a North American, it's easy to see English culture through the lens of all that literature and film and tv. I wonder if it's not actually very different for someone within England, where that particular version of the class system (I think I mean that attitude within the class system) is now more history than lived out.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of The Week- apr. 12/04 (4.V. Window On the West)
on: April 17, 2004 08:56
Very good remarks about the social structure Luthien! (And the class system is still lingering, if I can believe my English mates... should ask k to comment on this...*makes mental note*)

As for Frodo being naieve, I don't think he is - I think he is determined to give Gollum the benefit of the doubt, but not endlessly.
I guess maybe he just doesn't expect better from him?
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