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Figwit
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Post 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 08, 2004 11:37
1. Minas Morgul: was it as you imagined it? How was it depicted?

2. The Ring plays a peculiar part in this chapter: it calls to Frodo twice and once to the Witch-king. Why doesn't it manage to get where it wants to go? What is it that makes Frodo resist the urge to put the Ring on?

3. Why does Frodo overcome his dispair? How does this part relate to the general theme of hope?

4. How does Tolkien depict the Stairs? What could they symbolise?

5. One of the most famous passages of the Book 4 is when Sam talks about the 'great tales' and the people in them. Do you agree with what he says, or not? Please discuss this question in PbHf's Quote of the Week.

6. When Gollum watches Frodo and Sam, what do you think he was thinking? If Sam hadn't interrupted him, would things have been different?

[Edited on 10/5/2004 by Figwit]

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 08, 2004 11:50
1. Minas Morgul: was it as you imagined it? How was it depicted?


I don't know. Right now, I feel it's a little too fairy-talish, but I don't remember what I felt about it when I first read the book. I also don't like the idea of the sculpted beasts: it doesn't seem to stroke with the idea of Orcs or Nazgul that they'd be making art .
What I do like is the idea that there's something in there, 'watching'.


6. When Gollum watches Frodo and Sam, what do you think he was thinking? If Sam hadn't interrupted him, would things have been different?


Oh yes, this is one of the reasons I don't like Sam: I feel like he had a chance to turn things round, but he didn't.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 09, 2004 10:09
1. Minas Morgul: was it as you imagined it? How was it depicted?

I found it very eerie and menacing. Especially I liked the description of the fluorescent "corpse-light" that emanated from the city and the valley, in a way beautiful but cold and ghostly. And, the revolving top of the tower, with something constantly keeping a watch there, only increases the ghostly feeling.

3. Why does Frodo overcome his dispair? How does this part relate to the general theme of hope?

Now, here's an interesting connection to other parts of the mythology. Eärendil was called the Star of Hope. As Sam notices, the phial of Galadriel contained the light of that particular star. Grabbing the phial gives Frodo power to resist the command to put on the Ring and strength to go on - the Star of Hope still gives hope to those in despair...

Hope you get something from my rambling - it's past my normal bedtime. :yawn: I'll have to look at the other questions when I'm a bit sharper. :sleepy:
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 10, 2004 01:49
I hadn't even thought of Eärendil's name when I posted that one, thanks for reminding me!
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 10, 2004 06:53
2. The Ring plays a peculiar part in this chapter: it calls to Frodo twice and once to the Witch-king. Why doesn't it manage to get where it wants to go? What is it that makes Frodo resist the urge to put the Ring on?

I think the most important thing was that, Frodo "felt no inclination now to yield to it". He knows and understands the nature of the Ring now from his own experience; he has seen himself that, nothing good would come from putting it on, and he knows exactly what his fate would be if he did it. There's a voice of reason... And, it may be that the Phial of Galadriel that he forces himself to grab instead of the Ring, helps him to resist by just being present.
legolasfan27
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 10, 2004 09:16
1.

6. When Gollum watches Frodo and Sam, what do you think he was thinking? If Sam hadn't interrupted him, would things have been different?



Ohhhh...here's the only passage where I was a little mad with Sam...I felt so sorry for Smeagol (I use that name deliberately) from the description of him at that moment, the only time I felt any kindly emotion towards that creature. If Sam had only just been kind to him! Sometimes, and here's the optimist in me talking, a simple act of kindness can bring someone far gone into darkness back towards the light. Maybe not all the way back, maybe not even for long, but enough to make a difference in later events...Sam's cynicism hardened Gollum's resolve and they missed a crucial oppotunity to "save" Smeagol.
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 11, 2004 03:40
Sam's cynicism hardened Gollum's resolve and they missed a crucial oppotunity to "save" Smeagol.


I don't know if it was cynicism as much as narrow-mindedness. I don't think Sam's been through enough to be cynical (yet). I've always felt that it was because he seems to think in very simple, closed categories of 'good' and 'evil' that he can't see how a person could be both at the same time.
Karamy
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 11, 2004 06:12
1. Minas Morgul: was it as you imagined it? How was it depicted?

Yes, it was along the sort of lines I'd thought. Tolkien's descriptions ( "Luminous.. beautiful .. yet horrible of shape like the demented forms in an uneasy dream..") made me feel, well, sort of Lovecraftian about it. As if there was something there that wasn't quite right in ways that no human--or hobbit--mind could quite get enough of a handle on to either understand or explain but with no doubt left of the utter evil they held.

4. How does Tolkien depict the Stairs? What could they symbolise?

ahh, pure dark poetry: "narrow, spaced unevenly, and often treacherous: they were worn and smooth at the edges, and some were broken, and some cracked as foot was set upon them." I've always been of two minds about these: is it life's path we're walking? Full of pitfalls and snares to be either avoided or overcome? Or is he talking about what life does to men? Tolkien saw action in WWI--up close, personal and bloody as it gets. I'm sure war had these sorts of emotional effects on the men who went through the pure hell that is combat.

Or is it just too late and my mind's spun one time too many today?
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 11, 2004 11:25
No, lol, I like that interpretation! I always wondered about the Stairs themselves, though, because there's another straight road to the pass - why would anyone want to make a steep winding stairway then? What's it doing there?
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 12, 2004 02:18
6. when gollum watchs frodo and sam i think hes just having a moment of what could have been... i think he misses friendship and sees what frodo and sam have got and is sad, and also he might well be wondering what his life would have been like if things were differnt, if there was someone who loved him and someone who encouraged him to get rid of the ring... im going to put the quote here that i put in assignments illustrated because its wonderful

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee – but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing


Tolkien really reminds you of Gollums heritage here and for the first time it seems really real and gollum seems truley worth pity.



I don't think Sam's been through enough to be cynical (yet). I've always felt that it was because he seems to think in very simple, closed categories of 'good' and 'evil' that he can't see how a person could be both at the same time.


From tolkeins writing so far its hard to see why Frodo thinks about Gollum the way he does, so far he has seemed a nasty peice of work who's fawning over Frodo is just as despicable as his sneakyness.... i can see why Sam doesnt like the fellow - it took the films for me to realise just how sad a case Gollum really was.

I think things would have gone very differntly if Sam hadnt thought of Gollum as evil and untrustworthy- its hard to tell if Smeagol has enough will power to hold back his desires and fulfull the promise he made.. probably not, part of the reason he doesnt make more attempts to attack Frodo is because he is scared of Sam and knows Sam is watching.. Gollum would rather avoid a full out fight and be sneaky, if he knows Sam is watching then hes going to wait and wait until something comes up...
Karamy
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 12, 2004 06:05
(smacks self) Figwit, you know for all the times I've read the books that never occured to me? maybe its so tricksy folk can to and fro without scaring the orcs.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 12, 2004 07:27
6. When Gollum watches Frodo and Sam, what do you think he was thinking? If Sam hadn't interrupted him, would things have been different?

This scene shows how tragic a character Gollum actually is. I think he thinks of everything he has lost because of the Ring - home, family, friends, a whole life, and all that is left now is hatred and bitterness. And, he knows what kind of burden it is that Frodo carries, and probably feels pity for him... At that moment, he is definitely Sméagol again. But, unfortunately, Sam is not much a psychologist, and his harsh attitude and suspicion brings back Gollum, for good from now on.
musicalgal123
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 14, 2004 11:42
6)When Gollum watches Frodo and Sam, what do you think he was thinking? If Sam hadn't interrupted him, would things have been different?

When I read this, I thought, "Why is Gollum all of a sudden caring deeply for Frodo?" I think that Gollum really was debating to himself on whether or not to bring Sam into the tunnel. I think he knows that something bad will most likely happen. (the foreshadowing that Tolkien uses throught the pained look on his face when he turns to look up toward the pass suggests this) I also think that even though he seems to hate and love Frodo because of the ring, I think that Gollum is learning to love Frodo more than he hates him. I think Gollum learned to really care for Frodo. (this could be implied through the caress on Frodo's knee) I also don't think that, given the circumstances, there is a possibility that Sam would not have woken up. Because of where they are Frodo is not finding it easy to sleep soundly so, Frodo would have definatly made some noise or movement at Gollum's touch. In order to protect Frodo, Sam had learned to sleep lightly and awake at anything, so when Frodo had cried out, Sam would have awoken anyway. But, if it happened that Sam did not awaken, I think that Gollum would have found his love for Frodo so compelling, that he may have shown Frodo and Sam a way of escaping the tunnel which he knows could be disastrous.
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.VIII. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
on: May 14, 2004 10:49
I like what you wrote about it bein unlikely that Sam wouldn't wake up - you're very right there. However, maybe if his reaction had been different so would the outcome.

I also agree that there's something in that touch which shows a deeper kind of affection and connection - a touch is often a very strong way to share with a person, to even become one with them. Perhaps Sméagol already feels that they are one because of their burden?
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