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Figwit
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Post 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 16, 2004 02:14
1. How does Tolkien depict the lair? Was it scary? What could it symbolise? Does it remind you in any way of Moria or the Barrow-downs, and why (not)?

2. Shelob: when did you know she was a spider? What is she, what does she symbolise? Did you like her? PbHf's Quote of the Week also deals with Shelob and some odd similarities...

3. Why doesn't Galadriel's phial work at first? Why is it Sam who remembers Frodo has it? Where do the words come from?

4. Did you expect Gollum to betray them?

5. What does the following line mean?

The darkness of [Shelob's] evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.





[Edited on 18/5/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 18, 2004 04:49
1. How does Tolkien depict the lair? Was it scary? What could it symbolise? Does it remind you in any way of Moria or the Barrow-downs, and why (not)?


I adored the lair, I adored this chapter on the whole. It was one of the most creepy things I ever read.
The journey through the lair, the description of the endless thick darkness, the heightened sense of smell (a very underestimated and sadly neglected sense in our western culture)... it wasn magnificently scary. Yikes.

As for symbolisms here, what struck me most was how Tolkien disables all major senses (like hearing and sight) and focusses in stead on 'a tangible darkness' and a variety of horrid smells.

2. Shelob: when did you know she was a spider? What is she, what does she symbolise? Did you like her?


I like her best when she's only a set of eyes. I had no clue what she was until Tolkien actually uses the word 'spider', I remember that because I was very disappointed by Tolkien description of her (she had horns!). She was a lot more freaky in the movie!

I think she symbolizes Evil, in this aspect that it's only caring for itself and attempts to devour everything. She eats light - it's a bit like despair too, maybe that's what she is... I need to think about this some more.

5. What does the following line mean?

The darkness of [Shelob's] evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.


I find this very very very very interesting and I'm curious to see what other people have to say about it.

[Edited on 22/5/2004 by Figwit]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 18, 2004 11:48
quote:
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1. How does Tolkien depict the lair? Was it scary? What could it symbolise? Does it remind you in any way of Moria or the Barrow-downs, and why (not)?
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Tolkein's depiction of Shelob's lair is one of unimaginable terror: claustrophobic, suffocating, reeking. To me, Shelob's Lair symbolizes a coffin and impending death. I sensed that Frodo and Sam were experiencing what it would be like to be buried alive with no hope of escape.
Frodo and Sam were also in mortal danger in Moria and the Barrow-downs. These places were also dark but because they were with companions there seemed to be more hope of survival than in Shelob's Lair where there was only the two of them. I believe that the fear was more tangible in Shelob's Lair than in either Moria or in the Barrow-downs. Frodo and Sam had some prior knowledge of the potential dangers awaiting them in Moria and in the Barrow-downs. The evils upon them could be named. In Shelob's Lair, on the other hand, they trusted Gollum and were totally unprepared for the terror that would befall them. An Unknown monster. The total darkness. Their voices distant sounding. The incredible stench. These things were not only completely disorientating and terrifying to our heroes, Frodo and Sam, but were also completely unexpected.
I hope to find some time tomorrow to answer some of the other questions. But first... I need to do some deep thinking.
musicalgal123
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 19, 2004 04:18
1)When i read this I gathered that it is so dark you can't even see the tip of your nose. That would be really creepy if you are in a place where you can sense extreme evil. I didn't picture it as small. I almost thought it is too big and too dark to be good. It was almost exactly like Moria down to the remains of the dead (in smell, bones....) Tolkien used imagry to perfection to create a vivid picture of this dark and evil place

2)I figured that she was a spider when they came across the giant cobwebs that Sam's sword couldn't cut through. You knew at that point that some giant spider had made this because it is too advanced for an orc to build and that is pretty much the only other creatures around.

4)I didn't expect Gollum to betray them, but I expected that something bad would happen and that Gollum knew. Tolkien did an excellent job with foreshadowing what would happen in this chapter in the scene where Gollum is caressing Frodo's knee (last chapter) Because of the pained look on his face when he looked at the pass, I figured that Gollum knew that something bad would happen. I knew that he knew what would happen so, maybe yes I knew that he would betray them. How else would he know what was to come?

5)That quote is stressing the fact that evil is everywhere. When evil is around, people are afraid. When Frodo is afraid, the ring starts to call and say "put me on. I'm the ring. Wear me. Be invisable..." That would make it harder for Frodo to resist the power of the ring, making him even more tired. When you are tired and it is pitch black, your mind plays tricks on you. So I think this quote is getting really into the feelings of Frodo (please remember, I'm not looking it up to find out exactly who said it. I'm too tried and lazy to do that at the moment) I also think it is a very use of imagry to help you get a feel for how evil the tunnel is. Tolkien used excellent writing techniques to show his ideas and this quote is a great example of how imagry can really create an ultimitly evil place.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 19, 2004 09:14
2. Shelob: when did you know she was a spider? What is she, what does she symbolise? Did you like her?

I, too, did not realize that Shelob was a spider until Frodo and Sam came in contact with her web. My first thought was that Shelob was a giant snake because of the hissing noise that she made.
According to the Council of Elrond Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia of Arda, Shelob was the last living offspring of Ungoliant, which means 'gloomweaver' in the Quenya language. Ungoliant was an evil spirit that took the form of a giant spider. Faced with starvation it is believed that Ungoliant devoured herself.
Shelob is huge and I think the movie does an excellent job of portraying her. Like most spiders, she prefers to feed on living prey; Frodo and Sam seem, to her, like tasty morsels after eating many unsavory Orks.
I agree, too, that she symbolises evil but I would like to add that I think she also symbolises survival in its purist form. The perfect eating machine -like the great white shark in the movie, 'Jaws'.
I can't say that I like Shelob. I do; however, respect her and intend to stay far away from her lair. She is what she is.
Enough for today...
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 20, 2004 11:43
More on Shelob:
I wrote yesterday that I thought that Shelob was the ultimate survivor. After some thought I've decided that she symbolises much, much more... She is the poster girl for at least five out of the seven deadly sins.
Pride (vanity) -She spares Gollum's life (amazing) when he worships her. Of course, he also promises to bring her nice juicy hobbits to eat.
Gluttony -She is certainly a glutton. Tolkien uses the word 'glut'.
Lust -Tolkien speaks of her lust for something sweeter to eat (than Ork meat).
Greed -Her feeding goes beyond what she needs to survive.
Wrath (anger) -Tolkien mentions her anger.
I couldn't think of anything about Shelob that might symbolise envy or sloth.

3. Why doesn't Galadriel's phial work at first? Why is it Sam who remembers Frodo has it? Where do the words come from?
I think that Galadriel's phial does not work at first because Frodo is paralyzed with fear and without hope. Frodo, of course, has the burden of the Ring, which seems to dull his memory. Frodo could also be trying to digest what Sam has just said about Gollum. The light of the phial grows as Frodo's hope grows.
Sam isn't called 'Samwise for nothing. In spite of his fear and rage, Sam could still make quick connections in his thinking. I think it might have been the shape of the dagger (leaf) that may have led Sam to think about Lady Galadriel and the gift of the phial. Just a thought. As to where the words come from I believe they come from Sam's memory. That seems a bit simple. Perhaps it is Sam's interest and fascination with elves and their culture that keeps memories of them close to the surface of his memory.
Ruby
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 21, 2004 10:47
I do go on and on, don't I?

4. Did you expect Gollum to betray them?
Yes, Gollum is a backstabber, a schemer and a traitor. He is a also a master manipulator. Although I pitied him because of his ruined life, I never once trusted him. He has one goal and one goal only: to get back his precious.

5. What does the following line mean?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The darkness of [Shelob's] evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Figwit this is a tough one! It's the kind of question that hurts to think about. This is what I think...
I believe that Gollum at this point is weary indeed. He is also aging physically without the ring. He is weary from the years of travel in search of the ring, of being held captive, of being tortured, of interacting with others and of been looked upon with disdain. He is exhausted from the agonizing arguments with that part of himself that is untainted by the ring. And, of course, Gollum is obsessed with the ring and he often schemes about how to get it back. His object of desire is within his grasp and yet he cannot have it. All of this must be enormously exhausting. Gollum's world, which was once simple, has become complex indeed.
Shelob, on the other hand, has an evil will, her world is black, her thoughts pure (evil) and uncomplicated. When Gollum beholds her, he sees in her the beauty of simplicity. Shelob's dark, evil will is an inspiration to Gollum; it is desirable to him. As Gollum embraces the darkness of his own evil will, he gives up his last fragment of humanity (the light of goodness inside) and the physical, spiritual, and emotional ways of his weariness disappear. As his light is extinguished so are his regrets. He is now beyond redemption. This is Gollum's turning point. He decides to go through with his treacherous plan.
Ruby
Figwit
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 24, 2004 01:29
Ruby, I really like your description of the lair: 'a coffin'. That's exactly what it is, really!
I don't really agree with your comparison of the Barrows & Moria and the Lair though: I don't think they had any idea what to expect, nor that they could name the threat.
I guess what made the Barrows and Moria less scary was the idea of 'a way out': in the Barrows Frodo remembers to call for Tom (and as a reader, I had the experience of thinking 'why doesn't he call Tom again?') and in Moria there were (as you did point out) a lot more people around. But the darkness of the Lair is absolute and they are completely isolated, so neither the Hobbits or the readers (at least, that's how I experienced it) can think of a way out.

LOL, actually, envy is one of the things I think describe her best: her gluttony is based on envy, and envy of everything that she does not posses. Or at least, that's how I see her.

As for the 'words' (and I'm thinking ahead now ): I think that somehow that's not the Hobbit in question speaking (Frodo or Sam) but something or someone else, maybe even the light itself. I feel like maybe when the light pours out of the phial, something of this world comes into contact with something of the past, and something of the incredible strength of the Elves and of course of Eärendill: like an echo from history, tied up with the light.

I really like your interpretation of that quote too.
I spent some time thinking about it, and it seems to me to imply that maybe Gollum's betrayal wasn't his own: is it possible that in stead of Shelob being an inspiration for Gollum, as you suggested, she is rather commanding him? Because he is too tired to fight both her and the Ring and himself (in the background there's always the inner struggle between Gollum and Sméagol) (that could be the 'weariness'), he is also unable to resist her as she guides his steps.
This would also mean that it's not, like I always say, Sam who makes Gollum overcome Sméagol's love for Frodo and regret, but actually Shelob who (literally) cuts him off from regret.
Or am I reading too much into it?
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 27, 2004 10:58
Figwit,
Thanks for all your comments. You are right to disagree with me about Moria and the Barrows: what was I thinking? I went back and reread the chapters concerning Moria and the Barrows and discovered that, although there was a great deal of foreshadowing, the Hobbits were not given enough information to know what to expect. Tom does tell them about the Barrows but they were caught totally off guard. Aragorn and Gandalf try to avoid going into Moria but they do not name what exactly it is that they are apprehensive about. They only mention that there may be Orcs in Moria.
Yes, of course, Shelob's gluttony is based on envy. I thought and thought about that. Shelob wants it all so it stands to reason that she is envious of all. Thanks for clearing that up.
I like your explanation as to where the "words" come from. I still think that Sam's trail of thought lead him there but the "words" probably did come from the Elven magic. I could still be giving Sam too much credit for his mental ability under pressure. Certainly the "words" that Frodo uttered came from the phial because he did not know what he was saying.
I have to disagree with you about Gollum being a slave to Shelob -at least for now. It's possible and an interesting point of view. I just don't have enough evidence. We know that Gollum was held prisoner, tortured and was either released or escaped from Lugburz. We know that he visited her in the past. We know that he had some kind of relationship with her (which seems unimaginable to me). They must have communicated with telepathy. We know that he led Frodo and Sam to her. Did he bring others to her? Perhaps. Could she have ensnared him after he was released or escaped a long time ago? Did he make a deal with her for his life? He did want to get revenge on her if he got the ring back. He was still good at keeping promises even though he interpreted them to suit himself. Have I totally missed something here?
Another reason that I think he admired and worshipped her can be seen in his behaviour. Tolkien often uses the word spider to describe Gollum. Like a spider. That could, of course, be foreshadowing but it could also indicate a hero-type worship. Shelob could have been Gollum's role model.
I believe Gollum's very existence was bound to the ring and only to the ring.
It would be nice to think Shelob somehow enslaved him. That would somehow explain his treachery and still give us some hope that he was not beyond saving.
I never thought that Smeagol's caring for Frodo was sustainable. I do believe that Sam's behaviour was completely understandable considering his experiences with Gollum/Smeagol.
Ruby

Figwit
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Post RE: 4.IX. Shelob's Lair
on: May 28, 2004 04:15
Another reason that I think he admired and worshipped her can be seen in his behaviour. Tolkien often uses the word spider to describe Gollum. Like a spider. That could, of course, be foreshadowing but it could also indicate a hero-type worship. Shelob could have been Gollum's role model.


Aha! But then there's the... Frog Mystery Tolkien also describes him as frog in certain passages...

No, just kidding, it does make sense what you're saying... I'll need to think about it some more.
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