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snoopy_hobbit
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Post Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: May 22, 2004 04:22
I just tried searching through the forum to see if this topic had been posted but I couldn't find anything. But I am curious to know if anyone has an idea of how long an elf's childhood is. I think it might be like a mortal's childhood but then again, I'm not completely sure. Can anyone give me some insight? Please?

[Edited on 9/2/2011 by cirdaneth]
King_Fingolfin
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: May 22, 2004 06:46
The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than men but in mind swiftly


for exapmple when they are 1 years old they learned to speak and at the same time walk and dance.
Anthiriel
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: May 22, 2004 10:35
Elves become adults between 50-100 year of their life.At this time they begin to develop their creativity skills.And at this time they look like adults,earlier they resemble human children.(By the way,Elves'pregnancy lasts 12 months and this 12 months are added to the age of the baby.)Human child when is 3 years old,grows faster than the Elven one-just like King_Fingolfin wrote;"The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than men but in mind swiftly".
That's all I could find,hope it helps.
Ithildin55
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: May 24, 2004 02:24
The Elves count the child’s age from conception rather than from birth, thus the year spent in the womb is included in the person’s age.


“The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies.” p 209

A mortal watching Elf children at play “…might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and in some a hundred years would pass before they were full grown.” P 210

ED: and here's a quote from Unfinished Tales Page 80

Sador is asked: Was Lalaith indeed like an Elf-Child, as my father said? And What did he mean, When he said that she was briefer?
"Very like,´ said Sador for in their first youth the children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly, and their youth passes soon; such is our fate."

[Edited on 8/10/2007 by cirdaneth]
Celebrianna
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: May 24, 2004 03:39
Wonderful information there. Thanks a lot. I wonder what would be the case with half elves. What do you think?

Oh, but I just realized that Aragorn had not fully reach manhood until he was 50 years too. Perhaps some of this applies to the Dunedain.

ED: Watch this space for links to childhood of half-elves and Dunedain.

[Edited on 8/10/2007 by cirdaneth]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: October 29, 2009 04:43
Laws and Customs (Morgoth's Ring) is often quoted with respect to this question, but there are other texts by JRRT which perhaps speak to different conceptions.

With respect to A below, 3,000 years might refer to a rate of growth in Elves as it was from very early on, and which might have shortened later -- noting that this text stands in close relationship to the manuscript of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth and Finrod's remark in that text: 'Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning.' (also, in the manuscript the word 'change' reads 'growth' rather). In any case the examples below do not necessarily need to be consistent with each other.


A: Another text from Morgoth's Ring reads: 'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change...' Aman, Myths Transformed

B: 'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.'

Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales ('they' are the Númenóreans):


C: Note 1: C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).'

JRRT, author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'), from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70


This last and 'newest' reference is quite late.
Charlie_RedLion
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: December 03, 2009 09:12
What about the numenorians ? Was their childhood like that of other men , or more like that of the elves ?
Chocolatequeen
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: December 14, 2009 11:49
There may be a better text to answer that question, but I do have one. There's a rather odd little statement in the Appendices that never made sense to me before, but I now think is implies that Numenoreans matured more slowly, though not as slowly as Elves most likely.

"But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and early come to manhood..." (ROTK pg 1069)

The first point of interest is the phrasing "only twenty years old." While we would certainly not consider a 20 year old to be ancient or even experienced, "only" is not a word we would use in the context of this paragraph. The second and more telling bit is at the end--"early come to manhood." Twenty may be young to have accomplished great deeds, but it is certainly late to be considered to have physically reached adulthood.

There are other hints too (and these I'm just going to pull off the top of my head): Gilraen married young--younger than the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marrying. The fact that he qualifies the statement that she married young might mean that in other cultures, she would not have been considered young at all. Does this mean anything about how they age physically? Maybe yes, maybe no.

And somewhere I know I read something that stated the men didn't often marry until later as well. Can someone help me with a reference here?
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: February 09, 2011 07:30
*bump*
Hercynian
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Post RE: Elf-Life 2. Childhood and growth.
on: February 12, 2011 01:30
Whatever is said about Elvish children, it might be of interest to note what some have said about human child development. Having read Tony Wright's "Left in the Dark," he says our rise to humankind was basically a trick of biochemicals, that our early Homo ancestors ate a diet pretty much identical to the "great apes," i.e., mainly fruits and fresh veggies, with an accidental bug or two for the B-vitamins. He says the long gestation, then the long pre-puberty hormones allowed the brain to develop to our incredible levels, that the onset of puberty and heavy-duty hormones arrests brain development, i.e., it "sets" the brain, like, maybe, clay being fired. He said for a relatively short period of time, we got on a positive feedback loop, and our childhood stretched out for many years.

Well, that's Wright's theory, but I've seen a similar argument from the Waldorf people. Supposedly, Rudolf Steiner was dead set against accelerating kids into learning they weren't ready for. Waldorf schools have strict "age appropriate" activities. For example, kids before a certain age aren't even supposed to draw, but rather make blobby colors only. Steiner -- similar to Wright -- believed the human mind is different from animals in that it stays "out there" and not specialized for a much longer period, and that this is good. But to speed the "cementing" is bad.

I say all this because, following Wright's and Steiner's logic, it would seem higher sentience is achieved by having a big, extended childhood, i.e., if the Elves are a superior sentience, they might have longer periods of being "out there in the ether" before "adult mental duties" come due. Both Wright and Steiner seem to be saying "collapse childhood (educationally, hormonally) at your peril, human!" Too bad there's sinking puberty onset, as well as acceleration of education these days: One due to all the "endocrine disrupting" chemicals everywhere, the other due to hyper, pushy parents.
cirdaneth
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on: May 21, 2013 02:31
*bump
Cillendor
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on: May 22, 2013 11:57
And then there's the school system that forces all children through a mold of sitting still for hours, strict obedience, little play, and stifled imagination. Not only are kids growing up before they're grown up, but their childhood is severely restricted.

I know that's not really on point, but it's piggy-backing off of what Hercynian said. I don't know about the life spans of Elves, but it is very interesting to think that the Dúnedain might have matured at a slower rate than other Men. A personal grievance with Tolkien's work is how late in life his characters tend to marry, especially among the mortal races. But this at least explains it for these Men.

[Edited on 05/23/2013 by Cillendor]
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