Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Lord of the Rings » 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
Author Topic:
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 23, 2004 12:03
The last ones for TTT!

1. Shelob's defeat: did you like it? Does it symbolise anything? How does the symbolism of light tie in with ealier parts of the book?

2. Why does Sam decide to go into Mordor? Did he make the right choice by returning to his Master? What would you have done? Is that the only choice he has to make?

3. How are Gorbag and Shagrat portrayed? How is their conversation?

4. According to the Orc Captains, leaving Frodo behind was 'a regular Elvish trick'. What does this imply?

5. Sam blames himself for 'not having any hope'. How does this tie in with the general theme of hope throughout the books? Do you agree with him?

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with... the end?

[Edited on 26/5/2004 by Figwit]
RubySandybanks
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 115
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 28, 2004 11:42
The best part of this chapter -the title. Sam is called Master. He has to make critical choices. He is his own master.

1. Shelob's defeat: did you like it? Does it symbolise anything?
Yes, I thought it was indeed a fitting end to Shelob. At least we hope it's the end. The first thing that came to my mind when Shelob was defeated was the the poem:
Oh! What a tangled web we weave
When at first we practise to deceive
Her defeat could symbolise the end of Gollum's deception.
Of course it is more likely to symbolize the triumph of the human spirit or the triumph of good over evil.

2. Why does Sam decide to go into Mordor? Did he make the right choice by returning to his Master? What would you have done? Is that the only choice he has to make?
I believe he thought that is what Frodo would want him to do though he does not say so directly. He convinces himself that under the circumstances he must because (if Frodo is dead) he is the only one that can complete the quest (thereby saving the world from Sauron's evil dominion). Yes, he made the right choice in returning to his master. If he had not he may not have known exactly where Frodo was being taken or even that he was alive.
I hope that I could have done what Sam did. Yes, I think I would have carried on not because I'm particularly brave. I'm not. If there were death in front of me and death behind me, I think that, knowing that I had nothing to lose, would attempt to complete the quest. But, alas, none of that would matter because Shelob would have me hanging up somewhere in her lair long before that.
No, Sam had other choices. He could stay with Frodo and be captured. He could have dragged Frodo's body into Shelob's cave and waited for awhile. He could have committed suicide. He could of turned back. Again, I think he made the best choice of those that he thought about.

3. How are Gorbag and Shagrat portrayed? How is their conversation?
Like thugs. Undisciplined. Vulgar. Psychopathic. Those are just some adjectives I'd use to describe them. They are quite loathsome! Their depravity is particularly clear when they laugh about finding Ufthak all wrapped up in Shelob's web and how they just leave Ufthak for Shelob even though he is clearly alive. They also take great delight in the the idea of telling (horror) stories to Frodo (when he wakes up) about what he can expect to happen to him in Lugburz . Nasty sadistic Orcs.

4. According to the Orc Captains, leaving Frodo behind was 'a regular Elvish trick'. What does this imply?
Well, this is a tough question! Treebeard made a statement earlier: "But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the enemy in the great darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves." Also in the chapter, Uruk-hai, there is a statement. "...some elvish plot or other." I don't recall the context but... you get the meaning. Could it be that the Orcs were just born to mock the Elves whenever they had the opportunity. Perhaps it was an inherent characteristic of theirs.
In this case it could also imply that the Elves were leaving Middle Earth behind and that it didn't matter to them (the Elves) in the least what became of it.

5. Sam blames himself for 'not having any hope'. How does this tie in with the general theme of hope throughout the books? Do you agree with him?
Hope is definitely central to the moving forward of these stories and of our beloved characters. Certainly there has always been some hope even in the bleakest of circumstances. I think I have to disagree with Sam here (although he probably knows his own mind best). If he was completely without hope he would most likely have stayed with Frodo and been captured or he would have committed suicide.
Where there is life there is hope!.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 29, 2004 09:41
The best part of this chapter -the title. Sam is called Master. He has to make critical choices. He is his own master.


Oh, very nice phrased.

1. Shelob's defeat: did you like it? Does it symbolise anything?


I found it very fitting that she was overcome by both light and carelessness: too eager to claim her pray.

3. How are Gorbag and Shagrat portrayed? How is their conversation?


I love them! They're very vulgar Englishmen, a bit like hooligans, but they're wonderful too. I really like it when Tolkien gives his Orcs some kind of 'face', I really can't stand the desindividualisation that generally happens with 'enemies' throughout his works.

Their depravity is particularly clear when they laugh about finding Ufthak all wrapped up in Shelob's web and how they just leave Ufthak for Shelob even though he is clearly alive.


That was cruel, but also understandable, I felt: I wouldn't risk saving someone from the Lair either... or maybe I'm just a horribly selfish person .
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 31, 2004 07:17
Their depravity is particularly clear when they laugh about finding Ufthak all wrapped up in Shelob's web and how they just leave Ufthak for Shelob even though he is clearly alive.

That was cruel, but also understandable, I felt: I wouldn't risk saving someone from the Lair either... or maybe I'm just a horribly selfish person .


And, another question is, could they have been able to rescue him even if they had wanted - remember, the only weapon that could cut Shelob's web was Sting, an elvish blade.
RubySandybanks
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 115
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 31, 2004 10:12
Morwinyoniel,

- remember, the only weapon that could cut Shelob's web was Sting, an elvish blade.

Good point! Sting may not have been the only weapon that could cut Shelob's rope-like cords but it certainly does seem to be the only one that could do so with some efficiency. Sam, after all his furious effort, only managed to cut through one of the cords and that cord sprung back and hurt his hand. The Orcs certainly would not want to spend any length of time cutting through the cords as they might put themselves in mortal danger.

Figwit,
I like what you said about giving a "face" to the Orcs' characters. It really does enrich the story. It would be interesting to know what the Orcs' day-to-day lives were like when they not at war. At least we know that they had dreams and plans for the future.

I haven't read anything else by Tolkien so I didn't realize that not giving character to the bad guys was something he did as a rule. I will keep that in mind when I read his books from now on.

Soccer (my favourite game) hooligans. Especially English soccer hooligans. Perfect analogy!
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: May 31, 2004 10:40
Good point Morwinyoniel!

I haven't read anything else by Tolkien so I didn't realize that not giving character to the bad guys was something he did as a rule. I will keep that in mind when I read his books from now on.


Well, he tends to be rather one-sided in his descriptions: the Orcs (and most evil races, think of the Dunlendings, the Easterlings, the Haradrim but also Balrog or Trolls) are a 'fluid race' like a big blog of black jelly pudding and you can't really make out what it is... Alright, that was a silly analogy but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Of course there are exceptions (the Númenóreans for instance) but I've always felt it was kind of his 'trick' to make massive slaughter possible: if you desindividualise a group, you can then demonise them, oldest trick in the book.

But I might be wrong... you let me know what you think when we hit the Sil huh?
RubySandybanks
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 115
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: June 05, 2004 07:28
Yes, Figwit you are so right about demonizing the enemy. It unfortunately does work. Especially in the real world. Sad.

I do want to read the Sil. Sounds like quite a commitment though!
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: 4.X. The Choices of Master Samwise
on: June 06, 2004 10:36
Well, to be honest, it's always been quite a struggle for me to read everything - some parts are really... yikes. BUT I'm looking forward to reading it with the Book Club a lot because I think it'll help me understand it better, and I'll also be forced to read the whole thing
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email