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Figwit
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Post 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: May 31, 2004 12:03
Okay, we'll start with a couple of general questions about the characters. If you have question you'd like to see discussed, please pm me and I'll see if your question can be added.

1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signigy?

2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back of Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

3) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him?

4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: May 31, 2004 07:03
4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

Beregond and Bergil represent the ordinary people, the ones everybody can identify with. The fact that Beregond has a rather young family - something most of the people presented so far have lacked - makes him somehow very realistic; he's a man who works to support his family, does not dream of glory and adventure, but does his duty even at hard times. They are content as what they are - Beregond is proud just to be a Guard of the Citadel, and Bergil feels very important because he has been allowed to stay in the city. They are not powerful leaders, and they're not expected to be heroes, yet in a tight situation, people like them are capable in surprisingly heroic deeds. In a word, they're very human characters.

[Edited on 31/5/2004 by Morwinyoniel]
scots56
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: May 31, 2004 10:15
1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signify?

I think there is a strong relationship between Gandalf and Pippin although Pippin makes Gandalf crazy at times. It almost seems like a father/son relationship. Gandalf was the one who stood up for Pippin when the Fellowship was first formed; favoring letting Pippin be a part of it rather than be sent back as Elrond wished. That puts a burden of responsibility on Gandalf for Pippin. If Gandalf had said no, then Pippin wouldn't be in the situation that he is now, so Gandalf feels that he does need to take some special care of Pippin.

Parents feel that responsibility for their children, even when the child seems to make decisions on their own (like Pippin's decision to be a part of the Fellowship). You want to protect them as much as possible when you feel that it was also your actions that put them it a certain situation.

2) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him?

Denethor is proud and to a point arrogant. "He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best." Denethor is aware of this fact and feels that he is entitled to the lordship of Gondor even with the possible return of the king of Gondor. He feels that it's been so long since there has been a true king, that he is justified in rejecting the thought that the true heir might actually come to Gondor.

And because he feels this way, he sees Gandalf as a threat to that lordship. He knows that Gandalf is there to help, but since he has long sight also, he feels that Gandalf is intruding in what is not his business.

Pippin pledges himself to Denethor out of guilt to a point. He feels that he is responsible for the death of Boromir. Pippin had no idea what had transpired between Frodo and Boromir, and so feels that Boromir fell just because he and Merry ran off when they weren't supposed to. I also think that he sees in Denethor, some of the characteristics that are in Aragorn. That would make him want to pledge himself to him even if he makes him nervous. Great and powerful people tend to to that to a person, especially a little hobbit far from home.
olorinsjb
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: May 31, 2004 08:43
1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signify?

It is my belief that the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is indeed credible. I think that Pippin was chosen instead of Merry because Pippin is the foolish youth to Gandalf wise elder. In a sense they have a student teacher relationship. Pippin is a misunderstood/overlooked character by the rest of the fellow ship. And perhaps Gandalf sees pips true potential underneath his foolish facade. Seeing the true worth of pippin frequently angers Gandalf when pip is being a fool of a took.

2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back of Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

Minas Tirith is a city of decay not just physically but also morally. Faramir alludes to the fact that the people are more concerned with past glories than present troubles. both accounts do fit in my opinion.

) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him?

I myself do not like Denethor so my opinion of him is biased. But Denethor is Minas Tirith, he is decaying physically and morally. his relationship with Gandalf is rocky at best, he blames Gandalf perhaps for Boromir death. Pippin is an oddity to the steward, he blames Halflings for Boromir death as well but he is moved when pip offers Denethor his fealty. Pippin takes this oath out a sense of duty/honer/debt that he fells he owes the steward for Boromir death.

) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

I liked the father and son characters. They are the future and the past all at once. The father is defending the city so that his son and his people will have a chance at knowing what life without the enemy is.
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 02, 2004 11:47
1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signify?

Yes, I also think that the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is credible. If Pippin had not looked into the Palantir, Gandalf might have and that could have led to grave consequences. Gandalf now credits Pippin with saving his life: he therefore feels even more responsible for Pippin than he did previously.

Pippin is by nature, or by his tender age, more inquisitive and more likely to act without thinking than Merry. It is Pippin that looks into the Palantir, which puts him in the greatest danger. Sauron has seen him and assumes that Pippin is the ring bearer. The Nazgul are immediately dispatched to fetch Pippin. To protect Pippin, Gandalf must separate him from the Palantir, now in Aragorn's possession, lest Pippin be tempted (or forced) to look into it again.

Tolkien most likely wanted to develop both Pippin's and Gandalf's characters at this point in the story. He may have felt that Pippin had to mature for the challenges that lay ahead. Perhaps Tolkien, wanted to introduce Minas Tirith to us, the readers, through Pippin's innocent eyes.

I think the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is rather complex. At times their relationship seems like a father/son one; at other times it seems like a teacher/pupil one. I would like to add that there seems to be a counsellor/client relationship as well. I particularly like Gandalf's advice to Pippin just before talking to Denethor.

2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back of Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

Tolkien describes Minas Tirith in physical terms. It is a glorious, majestic city, a fortress, cleverly planned and rich in history. He also describes it as a city that is "falling year-by-year in decay." It now has only half of the population that it once had as is evident in the many long-vacated buildings.

Faramir, on the other hand, describes the city in human terms.

"We are a failing people, a springless autumn."

He describes how in days of old many men were so focused on the past glories that they did not look forward. Many men did not father children. I took this to mean that there was a significant decline in birthrate. It then became necessary to attract immigrants to keep the city vital (under the leadership of the Stewards). The Numenoreans, who once held intellectual pursuits and fairness in the highest esteem, now placed a greater value on war and valor. Faramir saw this change in priority corrosive to the survival of his society.

Yes, Faramir's description fits.
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 03, 2004 01:59
1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signify.

The relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is credible in as much as any relationship would be in the situation they were in.
Gandalf had a deep affection for hobbits and Pippin throughout his life, had heard of Gandalf. Gandalf was aware of Pippin's foolishness and naivety, but must have felt he was of some worth. When Pippin's curiosity and the pull of the palantir became too much for him and he looked into it, Gandalf then realised the unexpected advantage that Pippin had unknowingly given them, and that Sauron's attention would be now be drawn from the true position of the One Ring and focused on them. Therefore there was now a need for Pippin's protection. Gandalf knew that Frodo and Sam were able partners and that Merry was mature enough to take care of himself.
I cannot pinpoint a particular significance on Gandalf and Pippin relationship other than it is a mixture of Gandalf's teacher/advisor/elder to Pippin's pupil/client/youth.

As to why Tolkien singled out Pippin. It is my feeling that Tolkien was perhaps portraying all the young men who had entered into WW1 and WW2, keen to be included in something they didn't really understand but knew they had to offer their services. I think that Tolkien wanted to show how such an intense situation could instill maturity in ones so young. Which, did in fact happen to Pippin. Like a slow dawning.

2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back of Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

Tolkien description of Minas Tirith is both a picture of a city in depression, but also of a beauty and pride of days gone by. To my mind his images portray a ship heaving its bow through the Pelannor. Pippin never having seen such a city is in awe and rightly so as Minas Tirith is majestic.

Faramir is saddened by the people's disinterest in the City, which compliments Tolkien's depressive image, but looks to the days of glory returning.

So yes, for me, the descriptions do fit.

3) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him

Denethor is a hugely impressive character to me. He is proud and from a great lineage. He feels he and his ancestors have been betrayed and resents the thought of the return of a king, who, in his eyes, has never shown any interest in the welfare of Gondor. Unfortunately, he is under the influence of a palantir and is being deceived by Sauron. This may in some way account for his behaviour although the death of his son Boromir, is an unbearable burden.
His attitude towards Faramir is one that many parents suffer when they lose a partner at the birth of a child. The child is blame for the death of the mother. Denethor's intense love for Boromir may be due to the fact that Boromir is so different, but yet not so different, from Faramir. Denethor may also admire and envy his elder son.
I like Denethor and feel sad for him.

Pippin pledge of fealty is through a feeling of guilt, for the death of Boromir. He must feel he owes his life to Denethor as appeasement. Denethor is kindly enough to realise this and accepts Pippin's pledge. This action, goes some way, I feel, to beginning Pippin's maturity. Here also is an opportunity to show everyone that he is capable of maturity, that he is worth something and can handle responsibility.

4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

Beregond and Bergil are the meat and vegetables of the human race. Beregond is a gentleman, immensely proud of his heritage and Gondor, but caring enough of other people to be interested in their cultures - 'Your Tommy Atkins, if you will'. He is proud to serve and do his duty. He seems to be aware of Pippin's uncertainty and inexperience and does all he can to make the hobbit feel comfortable and welcome.

Bergil is again, the innocent brave youth, proud of his father and keen to do all he can to save his home. He imagines himself a man already.
I think Tolkien must have drawn deeply from the well of experience in WW1.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 03, 2004 08:21
3) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him?

I like Tolkien's description of the Great Hall. Cold and stern. Unchanging. That, to me, pretty much describes Denethor. I also like how Denethors face is described: "...his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory...". More imagery of stone!

He is a complex character. Intelligent, analytical, and intuitive. Denethor is held in high esteem by his people. He loves his country and his oldest son. He is also bitter, shrewd, and abrasive. He is condescending, sarcastic, and openly critical to both Gandalf and Pippin.

I don't think we know yet that Denethor is using the Palantir. It has been hinted at on a couple of occasions and Gandalf is most likely suspicious. That would certainly partially explain why he is the way he is. Perhaps I missed something?

I did feel badly for Denethor's loss but to wish that Faramir had gone in Boromirs' place (to his death) shows, to me, a heart full of malice regardless of the circumstances. What is most disturbing about Denethor's comment is that he said it out loud.

I think that Pippin pledged his fealty to Denethor quite by accident. His pride had been injured by Denethor's words, which evoked a sense of pride in him. He felt he had to defend and prove himself worthy. What better way? Pippin knew that Boromir had died protecting him (and Merry) and, as such, Pippin owed Boromir something. Hobbits do seem to do the right thing under pressure. I don't think he really thought about just what he was getting himself into though.

I agree with roseariaelven when she said:
"This action, goes some way, I feel, to beginning Pippin's maturity. Here also is an opportunity to show everyone that he is capable of maturity, that he is worth something and can handle responsibility."

Pippin's pledge seems to symbolize a rite of passage ritual. He has grown from boy to man.

4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

I like roseariaelven "meat and potatoes of humanity" comment. That's very clever. Beregond and Bergil are both completely likable people. I think they symbolize many of the best qualities of human beings: humility (Beregond), bravery, pride, generosity, and joy. Most importantly they symbolize friendship.

Pippin could relate to both of them as peers. They provided Pippin with a wonderful transition from childhood to adulthood.
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 04, 2004 12:27
As this is my first time in the Book Club, I'm not sure if posting a comment is allowed.

However, :blush: I realise, from RubySandybanks post that I jumped the gun a little with my comments regarding the palantir. Sorry.

Also, I think I have gone a little awry with Faramir. Of course, his mother did not die when he was born, he was about 5 years old. However, to continue, if I may, along similar lines.

Perhaps the reason Denethor treated Faramir the way he did was that he could not face the fact that Faramir maybe reminded him too much of his beloved wife, and also the fact that Faramir was influenced and befriended by Gandalf may have galled him.

Again, apologies for my small errors. Thankyou by the way RubySandybanks for your kind words.



[Edited on 4/6/2004 by Rosearialelven]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 05, 2004 07:09
Welcome Rosearielelven: It was just a wee mistake. I think most of us already knew that Denethor was dabbling. I've only been around since Shelob's Lair. I was reading the book anyway so I joined. I have a lot of catching up to do as it's been a long time since I read LotR. Oh well, it's good brain exercise.

Your comments have inspired me to check out the appendix in the back of the book. I had totally forgotten about it.

Now I understand why there was tension between Gandalf and Denethor. Gandalf was, of course, a threat to his stewardship. Given Faramir's dream I can also understand his animosity toward Pippin.

It sounds like Denethor never really got over the death of his wife. How sad! A tragic story. Imagine, too, how stressful his life must of been with Mordor so close. Such a massive responsibility.

I still have to think about just why he loved Boromir more than Faramir. Your theory makes sense.

I also thought about the importance of the horn and how it plays such an important symbol in this chapter. It is not only proof of Boromir's death but also a harbinger of the end of the rule of the stewards. The horn would never be blown again.

I've enjoyed all the posts on this chapter.
Back to thinking...
LadyJ
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 06, 2004 03:55
(1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? What does this bond remind you of, what could it signify.

In my opinion the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is credible. The relationship demonstrates several real-life situations. For example; teacher to student; parent to child; elder to younger, etc. For someone who is older and wiser to give guidance & care to someone who is curious/mischievous and doesn't think before acting is a common theme in our lives.

2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back of Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

My interpretation of how Tolkien described Minas Tirith is like something that is old and strong that is slowing deteriorating, but still demonstrates signs of not ready to surrender fully into what is "eating away" at it. Which in some cases can come within it self and I think in this case it is Denethor, the ruling party.
The description of Farmair's account fits in with his descriptions of the white tree not flowering, but dying..

3) What kind of character is Denethor? How is his relationship to Gandalf and Pippin? Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him

I think that Denethor is a kind of character that brings the "doom", "darkness" to the story where "good" and "light" should prevail. Not in the sense of Good vs Evil, but more along the lines of the evil that is brewing within the good (if that makes any sense). He exhibits signs that he is losing control not only with war impending, but with the loss of his son whom he had hoped to pass on the stewardship to. He realizes that he and his line have no future.
I see his relationship with Gandalf strained in many ways. He feels that he is in some way responsible for his son's death and that he is trying to rid him of his rule. For his relationship with Pippin, I think the thought of having something that his son died to protect makes him feel like he may have some part of him; especially since this person is vastly different from everyone else. It may even give him some shread of hope. (maybe).
I think Pippin pledges to Denethor because he feels some responsiblity to him, since his son died to protect him.

4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

I think Beregond and Bergil are characters that can give insight to the situations. (to me) they represent what was and what could be, they illicit hopes of those who are in trouble. I really do not like them or dislike them, they add some depth into the situation.
Figwit
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Post RE: 5.I. Minas Tirith
on: June 12, 2004 04:35
I had to prepare for my exams, so it took me a while to answer my own questions

1) Is the relationship between Gandalf and Pippin credible? Why did Tolkien single Pippin out, and not Merry for instance? what does this bond remind you of, what could it signify?

Mmm, I'm just going to say here that everything *I* wanted to say has already been said . So: yes, well duh, everything, everything.

scots56, I really liked your comment about the parallel between Gandalf and Pippin, and a father and a son, and how it ties in with Gandalf allowing Pippin to be a part of the fellowship. It's a huge contrast between Denethor's relationship with Faramir, which has only been hinted at so far.


2) How does Tolkien describe Minas Tirith. Think back to Faramir's account about Gondor in Book 4: does it fit?

I adore Minas Tirith! First of all, it reminds me of Tintangel (a castle on a mountain peak) and even Atlantis (the seven rings of the city). There's so much history to Minas Tirith, both in the text (all the history of Gondor is somehow tied in with it, and of course there's the strategic importance of the city in the war to come) but also as a contextual reference: Minas Tirith is thé archetype medieval city.
I always pictured it, strangely enough, to look like the Tower of Babel from the painting of Brueghel (which you can see here). But then white.
I like the 'white', because of course no city is really white. So you can only imagine that it must have been white, once, long ago... which again reminds you of the history of the city.
It's also the first city since Hobbiton where there are street names. I find that refreshing: it's easier to relate to a city where the streets do have names, than to a shapeless, unstructured place like Lórien or Edoras. These people are more like us, and also more like the Hobbits in a way – who are also more like us.


3) What kind of character is Denethor?

...[Pippin] wondered why the dead tree was left in this place where everything else was well tended.


'He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son Faramir...'


I think Denethor is much like the White Tree: a symbol of something long gone, and withered. Why keep it if it's dying? The Tree seems out of place in the city, and so does Denethor seem out of place in his own time: he symbolises to me some of the conservative forces of tradition that refuse to move onward but in stead cling to a past no longer useful to determine the future.

*spoiler*Just as the White Tree only becomes meaningful again when Aragorn finds the sapling, so this tradition only regains its meaning in Faramir who has all the noble traits of his forefathers and incarnates for a large part the good of a long and great tradition, but also has the will to look onward and welcome the King.*spoiler gone*

Or at least, that's what I made up out of this chapter


How is his relationship to Gandalf...?

He's right when he says that Gandalf has a 'hidden agenda', because he does. But he's so rusty in his ways and in his position as Steward that he can't look beyond himself and see that Gandalf's agenda and his agenda actually coincide.


Why does Pippin pledge fealty to him?

'Little service can I offer to your lord, but what I can do, I would do, remembering Boromir the brave.'


This quote struck me, since it's something he says when Gandalf and he arrive at the outer wall of the city. It seems to me that he's been thinking about a way to repay that debt he feels he owes Boromir, and in his absence his father, maybe not really expecting that one day he would be offered the chance to actually do so.
It also shows that Boromir was a lot more important to Pippin than one would assume from reading Book 2 alone: there's no real connection described there, though on Caradhras for instance Boromir thinks of the hobbits first. (Maybe because he sees them as children – Boromir doesn't have any children though he's already forty years old when he dies, and perhaps he's also reminded of Faramir? I know, highly speculative...)
But Pippin's feeling of guilt suggests something more than mere guilt, to me anyway.


4) The new characters of Beregond and Bergil: what kind of characters are they? Do you like them? What could they symbolize?

I like all the suggestions given. Both are thoroughly human, and in a way both are an easy and comprehensible way of allowing the reader to become accustomed to the city, and to the sense of a siege in a non-military way. They are the humans behind the soldiers about to die.

I find it very relevant, from a gender point of view, that only the men and some boys are allowed to stay in the city. Apparently the thought of women being able to defend the city, defend themselves, doesn't appear in the average Gondorian's mind. (This could help us understand Boromir's fear of Galadriel.)

Another comment I'd like to make about this one is that again we have the father-son theme re-appearing. If you look at it throughout the book, so far we have:
- the Gaffer - Sam
- Bilbo - Frodo
- Gandalf – almost everyone
- Elrond - Aragorn
- Glóin - Gimli
- Boromir – Merry & Pippin
- Treebeard – Merry & Pippin
- Théoden – Éomer, Théodred, Éowyn (!)
- Denethor – Faramir, Boromir
- Gandalf - Pippin
- Beregond - Bergil

And there's one more coming up I've always held that this theme is very very important to Tolkien, and we find it reflected in this chapter very clearly: three fathers, and four sons, and they're all very different from each other.

The fact that Beregond has a rather young family – something most of the people presented so far have lacked – makes him somehow realistic; he's a man who works to support his family, does not dream of glory and adventure, but does his duty even at hard times.
~ Morwinyoniel


I really like this idea, I hadn't thought of it myself. It's true that there are very few young families in the book, though there are plenty of young characters (Pippin, Éowyn,...).


some comments:

I did feel badly for Denethor's loss but to wish that Faramir had gone in Boromir's place (to his death) shows, to me, a heart full of malice regardless of the circumstances. What is most disturbing about Denethor's comment is that he said it out loud.
~ Ruby


I just wanted to life this out of your post, because it really struck me. I never thought about the difference between feeling something like that, wishing something like that, and then voicing it out loud. I've been thinking about it, and I don't agree with what you said about the malice of Denethor, but it does show that he feels no shame about the way he treats his sons. Something to remember for future chapters .

As this is my first time in the Book Club, I'm not sure if posting a comment is allowed.
~ Roseariaelven


Oh, yes it is ! The more comments, the better! Nothing like a good discussion, that's what I think! You made some great points too, everyone did. I went through all the posts before and I was most impressed: I hadn't even thought of half of what was posted here when I put those questions together! Thanks everyone!
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