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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 01, 2004 04:03
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the gteater power and the deeper wisdom and a majesty that was veiled

As with the first meeting of the Hobbits with Strider, appearances can be deceiving.

[Edited on 1/6/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 06, 2004 10:41
I do like this quote a lot PbHf, it surprises me no one else commented on it.

For all the misery Denethor is in, you'd never expect him to keep his kingly looks. It's also hard to believe that this man, so refined, is the father of a boorish soldier like Boromir - he may have been noble, but he wasn't kingly or noble. Though he does remind me of Faramir (that's an odd thing to say isn't, normally it's the other way around).

It's also remarkable that Pippin spots this difference, 'by some other sense than sight'. Pippin isn't known to be the most intelligent of Hobbits, so either Pip's growing up and becoming more attuned to the things around him even if they still startle them and he doesn't really understand; or Gandalf is growing increasingly powerful. Or a bit of both.
LadyJ
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 07, 2004 02:52
IIt's also remarkable that Pippin spots this difference, 'by some other sense than sight'. Pippin isn't known to be the most intelligent of Hobbits, so either Pip's growing up and becoming more attuned to the things around him even if they still startle them and he doesn't really understand; or Gandalf is growing increasingly powerful. Or a bit of both.


FIGWIT,

It's ironic that you say this, because as I have been doing some thinking since answering the questions you asked the book club. It is interesting to note the changes that occur both in Merry & Pippin through out the story (I think it is also demonstrated in the movie), the growth from innocent, curious, hobbits to hobbits that make some rather mature choices and observations. Knowing some of the experiences that Tolkien experienced during war are obviously demonstrated by these characters. I mean many go into that type of situation with somewhat of an "innocence" and if they survive it, they come out of it knowing much more. I think one can say that about life in general as well.

Just some thoughts !!!!


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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 07, 2004 03:08
I didn't realise that the quote was intended for comment. Seems like a late rush, albeit a small one.
For all the misery Denethor is in, you'd never expect him to keep his kingly looks.

For me, this is perhaps the reason why Denethor *does* keep his kingly looks. In misery, some people find a strength, which in turn shows itself in their demeanour. Denethor, I'm sure would not want people to know how he was suffering, and therefore would be intent on keeping 'appearances' up.

As for Pippin's conception of Denethor. Remembering his early life in the humble shire and his only contact with the outside being the eventual meeting with Gandalf and the other companions. His first impression of this noble, kingly person must have seemed to him, to be that Denethor was the epitomy of grandeur and wizardry. But knowing Gandalf, as he did through tales and actual contact, Pippin's deeper senses told him that of course Gandalf was the greater person.

Apologies PotbellyHairyfoot. I'll know next time. :love:
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 07, 2004 04:24
Lol, poor PbHf! I did wonder why this was overlooked .

Both very good comments! I agree that the journey from Shire Pippin to Gondor Pippin is a very steep one: in going down into the filth of war and the darkness of the human mind, Pippin's own strength and wisdom rise beyond himself. I always felt it was only later in the book that Pippin really becomes a singular and strong person, but there are sparks of this change all throughout TTT and it appears here too.

It's a very good observation about 'keeping up appearances', though I wonder who he's keeping them up for? For his people who cannot know what he knows - seems a bit strange that... Maybe for himself, that's of course possible. Though when I read that quote I have a feeling of great inner strength radiating from Denethor, and not really 'appearance' but something more, something of a nobility that he can't get rid off, not even at his lowest point.
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 07, 2004 04:45
Thanks Figwit.

Comments noted. :love:

I suppose I *was* thinking along the lines of people immediately around him, but I see your point that people would not be aware of his misery, *or* taking your insight, for himself. Yes, I think for himself. Many people feel if they keep themselves in control, they'll get through. 'Stiff upper lip' I think perhaps that was more what I was trying to get at.

So your further insight is much appreciated. :love:
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 07, 2004 09:40
Well, I found both comments very interesting. If there's one thing I've learned here in CoE it's that you can never fully understand this book on your own: the changes I went through, you wouldn't believe it . That's why I like the BC so much: it helps me to keep looking for new angles.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 14, 2004 03:04
(I'm glad this quote finally got some comments.
I've made poor choices before and I'd thought that I'd done so again. Sometimes I have to read a chapter over several times before something finally catches me as suitable for a quote. Once again I'll remind everyone that if we are coming up on a chapter where you know of a useful quote , don't hesitate to let Figwit or me know and we'll be glad to use it.)

I do like the way that Pippin has matured to the point where is is able to see past appearances and see the personality underneath. Being part of the fellowship has shown him what makes up a truy wise or noble person and it has little to do with appearance.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June !st 2004 (5.I. Minas Trith)
on: June 14, 2004 10:39
Yes, and I think particularly Aragorn must have played a huge part there (I would include Boromir, but he's described as 'fair' and 'noble'; and Pip had no idea of his betrayal so...) I've always liked that little conversation in 1.X. Strider, about his looks.

[btw, PbHf, none of you quotes are 'poor choices', sometimes it's just hard to come up with something to say, except that it's a good quote ]
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