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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 07, 2004 11:56
Eowyn - to Aragorn
And she answered 'All your words are but to say: You are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not ear either pain or death"

In many ways Eowyn is a one woman, middle-Earth, women's rights campaigner.
If the women stay home and the men lose the war, are they just delaying the inevitable? Is it better to go fight, and die, alongside them ( and possibly help them win) than to be destroyed by a victorious enemy?
Eowyn has been forced to take care of her uncle, the King, while he was ill. and she now wants to do something more with her life. She is simply not cut out for a typical Rohirrim female's role

[Edited on 7/6/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
striders_star
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 07, 2004 03:11
I like this quote, and I like how Tolkien put a character like Eowyn in the book. I mean, a lot of people keep saying its a boys club, but I just want to tell them to look at Eowyn.

In many ways Eowyn is a one woman, middle-Earth, women's rights campaigner.

I like that description of her. And I agree with it. The book was set in times when woman didn't fight, and weren't supposed to, but Eowyn is there to challange that. She thinks woman should have just the same rights as men and be able to fight for their homes instead of having to wait and see if the men come home alright. I agree with her.
I think Tolkien made Eowyn like this to show that woman have a part in the story as well. I also think that perhaps he knew or heard about many women like this during the two wars he lived through. I'm sure many woman felt like Eowyn then.

Is it better to go fight, and die, alongside them ( and possibly help them win) than to be destroyed by a victorious enemy?

Yes, I think so. I mean, I can totally see where Eowyn is coming from. I wouldn't want to have to wait at home, while men try to fight against an enemy that will destroy me anyway once it wins. And even if the men are victorious, I think that Eowyn would wish she could really share in that victory and that honor. She wants to be remembered. And not as just a good care taker.

This is my first post in this forum, and that was probably just a bunch of rambling about things that you've already said, but I'll post it anyhow.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 07, 2004 09:45
I, too, like this particular quote. It says a great deal about the patriarchal society in which Éowyn lives. The roles of men and women are clearly defined.

I'm not so sure that Éowyn's intentions here are to be an advocate for the rights of womens. I tend to think that she, in this statement, puts herself above the women of Rohan. She does not consider herself a "mere" woman. It seems to me that she has only her own interests at heart. She wants honour and glory and adventure and uses her statement to further her case. One can hardly blame her though as she is strong willed and seems compelled to follow her heart.

I think her situation is unique given her position in Edoras. It somehow seems like a lonely place to be for her. There may no other woman in all of Rohan who would make such statements or even think them for that matter.

striders_star: I agree with your statement that Tolkien probably introduced Éowyn to show that women (in this case human women) did have a part to play in middle earth. Still I believe Éowyn is bitter and bored with her lot in life. I think she might been seen as a bit of a rebel -a bit of a Joan of Arc type.

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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 08, 2004 01:36
women's rights campaigner

The book was set in times when woman didn't fight, and weren't supposed to, but Eowyn is there to challange that. She thinks woman should have just the same rights as men and be able to fight for their homes instead of having to wait and see if the men come home alright.

Sorry, I cannot agree with the thoughts that Eowyn is a one-woman, middle-earth, women's rights campaigner. Far from it. From her disparaging comment about not being a 'serving woman', she obviously sets herself above the ordinary female.

It is my personal feeling that Eowyn was only truly interested in Eowyn. Sorry to be so candid. However, having said that, she cannot be blamed. Her heritage counts for a tremendous part of her makeup. Being the only female raised amongst such powerful men, she would have had the opportunity to spar in sword play with her brother and his friends and possibly treated as 'one of the boys'. She was a lady of high birth, with a bloodline of warrior kings and it must have had a great influence on her.

I feel that Eowyn is frustrated and sees herself as a fierce, proud warrior Queen and is demeaned to be told she has to stay and look after the people, instead of being on the field of battle.
Is it better to go fight, and die, alongside them ( and possibly help them win) than to be destroyed by a victorious enemy?

I would probably agree with those sentiments, although it takes a particular type of woman who would venture into the field of battle. My point is that the ordinary woman would more than likely not wish to be fighting alongside the men. although who can say.

In conclusion, however, I would like to say that I am at one with all of RubySandbanks's comments.

*bows* to RubySandbanks


[Edited on 8/6/2004 by Rosearialelven]
narithil
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 08, 2004 07:34
Eowyn is not a women's rights campaigner. One must understand the reasons why women did not fight in battle. It was not just simply because they were women and thats the way the world worked. It is more complex than that. First, even if they do achieve victory, some people will die. If a child looses both of his parents, he is an orphan. Women needed to care for their children (can you seriously see a society of all men caring for young children after all of the women are gone? Not that single male parents are bad, just children, especially very young ones, need their mother's care). Many women would also most likely be carrying a child at the time. You cannot endanger a pregnant woman in battle.

Even though there would be little chance of success for the men, one could not rely on the hope that adding all of one's women to the battle would help in success.

Eowyn sees doom both in staying (especially since she has no children) and going. What it comes down to for her is picking the way that she'd rather go. She wants to at least be remembered for her valor in battle. She is not only looking for fame. She needs to know that she is useful, too. Being that she's not a mother (and it doesn't seem to her that the oppertunity will come soon) and she's not allowed to fight, she's not sure what she wants. But, considering that she feels that they will all die in this mission, she does not want to find her own way to die in the hands of the enemy. She believes that she has to pick which way seems best to die.

By the way, this is all just my opinion. Don't get mad if you disagree.
scots56
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 12, 2004 03:57
I'm not so sure that Éowyn's intentions here are to be an advocate for the rights of womens. I tend to think that she, in this statement, puts herself above the women of Rohan. She does not consider herself a "mere" woman. It seems to me that she has only her own interests at heart. She wants honour and glory and adventure and uses her statement to further her case. One can hardly blame her though as she is strong willed and seems compelled to follow her heart.


I've always felt that way. She's such a strong woman that she cannot place herself in a "mere" woman's role. So much like a warrior male.
Is it better to go fight, and die, alongside them ( and possibly help them win) than to be destroyed by a victorious enemy?
Would we think anything of that statement if given by a man?

But saying that, her relationship with Aragorn for her is seeing herself as queen. She fools herself into thinking that she is in love with Aragorn. She's not, she's enamored with the thought of finally being able to do the things she thinks she ought to be able to do not what she is obligated to do. Of course, looking at it from an emancipated woman's point of view, that kind of "the woman stays at home..." thinking would drive me nuts.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 12, 2004 07:57
I agree with you totally scots56. I can't believe that I put womens. I really did mean women. LOL at myself.
narithil, I don't think anyone would get mad at you. You do make a good point.
I think one of the concerns with Éowyn going off to battle is that if she were killed along with Théoden and Éomer, it would be the end of the ruling bloodline. I think Éowyn has a short sighted view of things. But it is her life after all.
Even in present day, Prince William and Prince Harry travel separately so that if one of them should die, there will still be an heir.
She probably would make a different choice if she had children. Those little guys (and girls) certainly do have a way of changing one's life.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: June 13, 2004 09:13
You all make excellent points, and I especially like your analysis narithil about why women are to stay behind.

Personally, I have a very double feeling about Éowyn, really, and it becomes clearer when you read the entire conversation this quote was taken from. It's not like Éowyn was simply 'left behind', as Aragorn says:

'...did you not accept the charge to govern the people until their lord's return? If you had not been chosen then some marshal or captain would have been set in the same place, and he could not ride away from his charge, were he weary of it or no.'


Éowyn doesn't want to have the same rights as men, she wants the glory. This becomes all the more clear by what she replies to this:

'Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?'
...
'I do not bid you flee from peril, but to ride to battle where your sword may win renown and victory.'


I think this side of Éowyn is often overlooked, especially because we are liberated women, and we see in Éowyn's lust to fight just like men a pre-figuration of our own recent history. But Éowyn isn't a woman with no rights: thanks to Háma's intervention in Book 3, she's the one who was to lead her people to safety when the King went to defend Helm's Deep. And she's to keep her safe until the King returns, that is no small charge when death is standing on your doorstep.
Aragorn is very right when he says that maybe she wouldn't have to wait for too long to pick up her blade and defend herself and her people: if the others fail, the enemy's armies will flood the lands.
Éowyn seems to think that war is decided on the battlegrounds, and that afterwards all there is left to do for those defeated is to be slaughtered or plundered, or both. She doesn't seem to understand a) the gravity of the situation (she speaks of 'old age', as if she's unaware of the chance she'll die soon) and b) the importance of her role in all of this.
She doesn't want to stay behind, take care of her people, already work on the defences in case the Riders don't return, start training the other women... Those are important things that a good leader should think of, yet she doesn't want to do any of these things: she wants to go out, to actively seek battle. And she needs battle, according to the Rohirric spirit and tradition, to win renown, and glory.

I've always felt that Éowyn's character is a very very complex one. She's only 24, that's the same age as me, she's nothing more than a girl who's outgrown her role as servant and is desperate to find a new role in life. And because she seems to have been raised amongst men, she probably takes Éomer as a role-model and tries to get what he got. In a way, since she's no longer 'the niece who takes care of the king', she's now going to become something else – and that something else is, to put it very crudely (because I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that), Éomer.

'I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'
'Few may do that with honour,' he answered.


I've always found that a puzzling answer, but I think that he means to say that when people take their life into their own hands, it often becomes self-centred. All her life Éowyn has served, and partly she will have done this out of gratitude. Now that her service is no longer required, she wants to go live for herself, and find honour and glory for herself.
She thinks Aragorn is like that, but imho she's very wrong there: Aragorn has lived a life of service as well. His fate, which he's embraced, is to claim the throne of Gondor and Arnor. To do this, he's had to labour for many long years, and he will have to labour on even after this war is decided (for good or for ill). There is no personal glory or renown in it for him, I think: the king embodies the people, embodies the heritage and history and future of that people. As long as he is the heir of Isildur, and especially when he becomes King, he ís the people, he lives for his people.

Did all of this make any sense to anyone? I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me , but that's how I see it. I don't want to offend anyone, that's certain, and I certainly don't think there's a 'correct way' to read Éowyn.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: July 09, 2004 07:37
Figwit,
How did I miss your comments concerning Éowyn? :blush: Very nicely expressed and gives a lot of food for thought.
Obviously you've done a lot of thinking about this topic.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 7th 2004 (5.II. the Passing of the Grey Company)
on: July 09, 2004 10:53
Thanks a lot Ruby! Yeah, I have... glad it shows
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