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Figwit

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5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 13, 2004 09:19

1. Dunharrow: we were there before, but we didn't get a proper description yet. Do you like it? What do you make of thePúkelmen? What kind of impact does its history have on the way we perceive it, and the way the Riders perceive it?

2. What can we learn about the culture of the Rohirrim in this chapter? PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with Théoden's ideal of a glorious death.

3. Why does Merry want to go along in battle? Why does Théoden deny him? Why does Dernhelm take him along, and who is he? *remember: no spoilers for future chapters!!!*

[Edited on 15/6/2004 by Figwit]

Figwit

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 13, 2004 09:20

1. Dunharrow: we were there before, but we didn't get a proper description yet. Do you like it?

I love it! Those first few pages of this chapter, where Merry describes how lonely he feels, how overwhelmed he is, by this new landscape are amongst the most beautiful Tolkien ever wrote.
What it reminds me of most, is a picture I once saw in a geography book of a plateau with a waterfall in Africa, somewhere. I don't know what Bloemfontein, or the region around it, looked like, but maybe Tolkien was inspired by his experiences in Africa.

What do you make of thePúkelmen? What kind of impact does its history have on the way we perceive it, and the way the Riders perceive it?

I love the Púkelmen. Merry looks at them with pity, but I don't: rather than an abandoned and rather pathetic sample of the culture of a lost people, I see these men as a foreboding and a reminder. The people who lived there, and made the road and the sculptures, are gone. They disappeared off the face of the earth, long before the Rohirrim ever came to these lands. That an entire people can simply vanish, is something to think about: how does that happen? What kind of war or famine either killed these people, or forced them to leave their lands? And where did they go? And does the land miss them (like Hollin missed the Elves, according to Legolas [2.III]?
They stand at every bend in the road upwards. The road to the future, the road that in history marks the slow rise of civilisation, isn't a straight road, and on every corner a forgotten people, a lost battle, a destroyed civilisation stands.
Look at our own history, and how it resembles this road.
Of course I'm reading to much into this, but still...

I think the Rohirrim don't really feel at home in this part of the country. It also shows in their tale about the Paths of the Dead: they're afraid of it, they don't understand. When it comes to the history of this region, they have to rely heavily on legend and myth.

2. What can we learn about the culture of the Rohirrim in this chapter?
I think once again we can see how focussed on warfare and battle these people are. Their language is also one of a people always at war, thoroughly influenced by violence and fear.
What also strikes me is the love of the Rohirrim for their King, and the fact that Éowyn goes armoured but no one comments this.

LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 15, 2004 02:08

3. Why does Merry want to go along in battle? Why does Théoden deny him?

I was thinking about Merry when I read this chapter after my math final today; I'm not sure. After declaring that he would serve Théoden, he wanted to serve him, not be left at Edoras to find out if everyone died. He didn't want to be left behind and wanted to help. Théoden, of course, didn't want Merry to be harmed. He seemed like a child or a son to him.

Why does Dernhelm take him along, and who is he? *remember: no spoilers for future chapters!!!*

*Waves flag* Spoiler alert! Don't look in the index, or you'll find out what happens to him!
Who is he? He seemed to me, the first time I read this, to be one who had had something tragic happen, but had decided to go to war. As mentioned before, his face was the face of one with no hope who goes seeking death. (paraphrased)

Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say,' he whispered; 'and so I have found myself.' Merry looked up and saw that it was the young Rider whom he had noticed in the morning. 'You wish to go whither the Lord of the Mark goes: I see it in your face."
"'I do,' said Merry.
"'Then you shall go with me,' said the Rider. 'I will bear you before me, under my cloak until we are far afield, and this darness is yet darker. Such good will should not be denied. Say no more to any man, but come!'
"'Thank you indeed!' said Merry. 'Thank you, sir, though I do not know your name.'
"'Do you not?' said the Rider softly. 'Then call me Dernhelm.'"

Dernhelm seems to identify with Merry, and though he had a different purpose in going into battle, identifies with him somehow. Does the first highlighted section imply that Dernhelm was advised against riding with the Riders, or even told not to? Could Dernhelm be crippled or something along those lines? The last section seems to mean that Dernhelm half expected Merry to know who he was. The first thoughts that crossed my mind - don't pay too much attention to me - were that Dernhelm could be a Hobbit who Merry knew in his childhood, or Gandalf.
I liked Dernhelm, the first time I read this; since we do hear more about Dernhelm in (a) future chapter(s), I won't say what I think of him now.

RubySandybanks

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 15, 2004 11:16

Yes, I do like Dunharrow. Dunharrow reminds me very much of many places that I've seen here in British Columbia, Canada. Heavy forests, waterfalls, mountains, hidden valleys. Majestic, beautiful, and seemingly endless. I can emphasize completely with Merry and his feeling of being very small in such a landscape. This closeness with nature can be a unique spiritual experience. And a bit overwhelming for some people.

The Púkelmen are a mystery. Figwit, I like your words concerning the Púkelmen: that they represent "a foreboding and a reminder". I find it interesting too that the path itself leads up to the Paths of the Dead.

I tend to agree with Merry's sense of pity for them though. The Púkelmen must of been a skilled and intelligent people. The road is quite remarkable in its design, construction and location. Unfortunately, they left little of their history behind. The Rohirrim seem to pay very little attention to the Púkelmen. But I wonder if the Púkelmen have had some kind of psychological effect on the Rohirrim. Perhaps they have reinforced, in the Rohirrim, the importance of keeping a history and the importance of affiliations with other people and races in order to keep that history alive. Just speculating of course.

2. What can we learn about the culture of the Rohirrim in this chapter?

The Rohirrim are an extremely organized, warlike people with a well-defined chain of command. They are loyal to their allies. And to their king. The Rohirrim riders would die for their king if need be. To die in battle is considered to be glorious and honourable.

The Rohirrim take great pride in being remembered in songs and poems. Their history seems to depend on an oral history. Perhaps I'm wrong here but I have not read anywhere that the Rohirrim had books, paper, etc. If this is the case, a person might well be forgotten if their names went unmentioned in stories, songs or poems.

We also learn that the Rohirrim are very human indeed. They do feel fear but act in spite of it. They are a courageous people.

3. Why does Merry want to go along in battle? Why does Théoden deny him? Why does Dernhelm take him along, and who is he?

Merry feels that all of his friends are doing their part for the war effort. He, too, wants to contribute. Furthermore Merry takes his oath to Théoden seriously. Hobbits do seem to put enormous importance on the keeping of oaths and promises, don't they?

Théoden believes that it is his duty to protect Merry. I believe that is Théoden's first motive in wanting to leave Merry behind. Théoden is also thinking that Merry might be underfoot, much like a child: that he would be more of a burden than a help.

Dernhelm is somewhat different in stature than the other riders of Rohan and seems to have some insight into Merry's thinking. Dernhelm seems to emphasize with Merry and because of Merry's motives (in wanting to go to war), Dernhelm is willing to disobey Théoden's order that Merry stay behind. "Such good will should not be denied."

[Edited on 16/6/2004 by RubySandybanks]

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 20, 2004 06:59

1. Dunharrow: we were there before, but we didn't get a proper description yet. Do you like it? What do you make of the Púkelmen? What kind of impact does its history have on the way we perceive it, and the way the Riders perceive it?

I like Dunharrow very much. The description is wonderful, you can almost hear the waterfalls and sense the heavy greenness of it all. Merry must have felt very small seeing such grandeur of scenery having come from the Shire.

I can't really decide on The Púkelmen, other than my first thought was of the figures on Easter Island. They are there and I suppose as there is no history attached to them, as such, people would be in awe of them and wonder about who they were.

I don't really understand Merry's 'pity' though. If he doesn't know about their history then how can he feel pity, other than they are from a long lost civilization. There are the remains of many great lost civilizations, but I can't say that I feel 'pity'. Sadness perhaps that once great people have gone, for whatever reason.

2. What can we learn about the culture of the Rohirrim in this chapter?

The Rohirrim for me, immediately conjure up the Vikings or the great Germanic hordes. Proud and warlike, answering to no-one other than their King. They consider death in battle to be honourable. As shown perhaps in Theoden's words to Eomer.

They wish to be remembered in song and word of mouth. As in the sagas of the Norsemen and other cultures.

3. Why does Merry want to go along in battle? Why does Théoden deny him? Why does Dernhelm take him along, and who is he?

He wants to be a part of the upcoming events. He knows that his fellow hobbits are involved and he would be miserable if he could not be an effective participant. When he gave his oath to Theoden, he meant it to be to the field of battle, at whatever cost.

I don't feel that Théoden truly realises Merry's purpose in offering his allegiance. Also Théoden seems to feel that Merry would not be able to cope in battle. I think he possibly sees him as a child, not to be taken too seriously.

Dernhelm appearing somewhat smaller than the Rohan riders, stands out to Merry. Dernhelm feels that he and Merry have an affinity in that they may be left out of the proceeding. He takes Merry under his care as he wants to help the hobbit achieve his longing to do his part in the forthcoming battle. Hence, his words "Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say,' he whispered; 'and so I have found myself.'

I feel Dernhelm is someone who sees the plight of Merry and shares in the hobbit's feeling of insignificance due to stature. A brave soul, caring and determined.

atalante_star

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 20, 2004 10:48

I like Dunharrow very much. The description is wonderful, you can almost hear the waterfalls and sense the heavy greenness of it all. Merry must have felt very small seeing such grandeur of scenery having come from the Shire.

It's very interesting to me that you mainly see the bright side of Harrowdale. Every time I read this chapter, while I see the beauty of Harrowdale itself, I also feel that Dunharrow is quite a spooky place, very otherworldy. For example:

Such was the dark Dunharrow, the work of long-forgotten men. Their name was lost and no song or legend remembered it.

Merry stared at the lines of marching stones: they were worn and black: some were leaning, some were fallen, some cracked or broken; they looked like rows of old and hungry teeth. He wondered what they could be, and he hoped that the king was not going to follow them into the darkness beyond.

The road that we have climbed is the approach to the Door, yonder in the Dimholt. But what lies beyond no man knows.

The marching stones faded slowly from sight, but still beyond them, blacker than the gloom, brooded the vast crouching shadow of the Dwimorberg.

(Note: use of the word Dwimor meaning fate, wyrd - this adds to the intensity, that this is a place of mystery and a place where fates may be decided).
And to add to that are Theoden's words:

Folk say that Dead Men out of the Dark Years guard the way and will suffer no living man to come to their hidden halls; but at whiles they may themselves be seen passing out of the door like shadows and down the stony road. Then the people of Harrowdale shut fast their doors and shroud their windows and are afraid.

-----------

I can't really decide on The Púkelmen, other than my first thought was of the figures on Easter Island. They are there and I suppose as there is no history attached to them, as such, people would be in awe of them and wonder about who they were.

I think it's maybe a bit more than wonderment. Imagine if you had been the first person to see the statues on Easter Island (which I also always think of when it comes to the Púkel-men!) - what would you think? I think wondering about their origin would come later - after awe and astonishment, and maybe even reverence.

Yes ... I know I've pretty much just rewritten what you've said Rose :dizzy:

But then contrast the possible / probable reaction of Merry (seeing the stones for the first time) with that of the Rohirrim:

The Riders hardly glanced at them. The Púkel-men they called them, and heeded them little: no power or terror was left in them

Familiarity breeds, if not contempt, at least acceptance and demystification.

I don't really understand Merry's 'pity' though. If he doesn't know about their history then how can he feel pity, other than they are from a long lost civilization. There are the remains of many great lost civilizations, but I can't say that I feel 'pity'. Sadness perhaps that once great people have gone, for whatever reason.

Firstly , just to be hugely pedantic, he looks at them "with ... a feeling almost of pity". Not absolute pity, because as you said, without knowing of their history it would be hard to feel proper pity. But why he was almost feeling pity? Maybe because the Riders didn't even acknowledge the Púkel-men any longer - that the ancient monuments were being ignored. Maybe because in the wearing away and erosion of the years the stones were losing their attraction, their power to command attention - and maybe because the culture they created them as monuments for eternity were being overlooked, forgotten.

One more point about the Púkel-men - oh, um, forgetting I'm in the Book Club rather than the Books Forum :blush: So, just think back to the Púkel-men during the chapter "The Ride of the Rohiirrim".

-------

3. Why does Merry want to go along in battle? Why does Théoden deny him?

I don't feel that Théoden truly realises Merry's purpose in offering his allegiance. Also Théoden seems to feel that Merry would not be able to cope in battle. I think he possibly sees him as a child, not to be taken too seriously.

I think the analogy of a child is a good one. Theoden understands Merry's pledge, but I think does not take it hugely seriously. The conversations he has had with hobbits up to that point revolve around smoking, drinking, all happy subjects, and maybe he doesn't really believe that a hobbit would want to, or could, fight in a battle situation.

But as for why Theoden denies him .... two things - affection and kindness, and belief that Merry would be a hindrance in the battle. Someone would have to protect him, and that would be someone less to fight against Sauron's forces. And I believe that Theoden would not wish to see him in the battle. His first conversation with Merry (and Pippin) was at Isengard, where for the first time he beheld Saruman and defied him. The small interval where the hobbits sat with Aragorn, Gandalf etc was a little haven of peace in the war, and I would suspect that Merry became in some way representative of peace and happier times to Theoden. And possibly - just possibly - I suppose Theoden might be reminded of Theodred - that he has lost his son, so now would he want to expose another "childlike" person to battle?

But why, lord, did you receive me as swordthain, if not to stay by your side?
...
"I received you for your safe-keeping," answered Theoden; "and also to do as I might bid. None of my Riders can bear you as burden."

Figwit

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 20, 2004 11:05

Just wanted to add something to your comments atalante

And possibly - just possibly - I suppose Theoden might be reminded of Theodred - that he has lost his son, so now would he want to expose another "childlike" person to battle?

Possibly. I think it has to do with Merry's size rather than any semblance with someone he knew. Because if he would feel protective towards Merry out of fear of losing a 'son', then why doesn't he have that same protective reflex towards Éowyn or Éomer?

atalante_star

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 20, 2004 11:14

I did say just *possibly*

I totally agree that it was much more about size and stature, but I was thinking that just maybe maybe thoughts of Theodred were somewhere in the back of his mind. He knew that Eomer and Eowyn could look after themselves alright in battle, he didn't know that about Merry.

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 21, 2004 12:03

Thanks for your points of view Atalante. It's good to see so many different interpretations of Tolkien's words.

I agree with some of the things you say and, naturally, not with others.

The Pukelmen. Awe and wonder, wonder and awe. For me it amounts pretty much to the same thing. You are in awe, and wonder who these people were, or you wonder who were the builders of these statues and then are in awe of their abilities.

I totally agree that it was much more about size and stature, but I was thinking that just maybe maybe thoughts of Theodred were somewhere in the back of his mind. He knew that Eomer and Eowyn could look after themselves alright in battle, he didn't know that about Merry

I think that's what I was trying to get across, Figwit. But just a point, if he felt Eowyn was capable in battle, why couldn't he have let her go. And it never even registered with me that Theoden might have been thinking about Theodred.

Sometimes I find it difficult to put into words exactly how I feel or percieve things. But it's good to try. And I enjoy the feedback. :love:

Everything else said, I take on board and hopefully learn to percieve things in different lights.

But if I might just add about Theoden and Merry. I did feel that Theoden was a little off-hand with the hobbit. And I have to admit that I didn't really get the feeling of him wanting to protect Merry. More of concern that he would be in the way.

atalante_star

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 21, 2004 02:03

Figgy, I'm going to apologise in advance for talking a bit outside RotK, but I've been thinking a little more about the Pukel-men, and there's some stuff Tolkien said about their creators that may prove interesting for people

And I'm not going to put the reference for it, deliberately, as it could prove a spoiler

"These tales ... that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to thier artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring."

Now isn't that interesting :love:

Do you think that that is a good explanation of their feeling of (faded) "power" and presence? That their creators embued the statues with some of their spirit?

Or what about extending the analogy further to Easter Island? The statues there are thought to be repositories of the "group conscience" of the Easter Islanders who created them. They were there as reminders of the ancestors, as guardians of the island. That also raises the question about what the pukel-men could have been guarding .....

Figwit

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 21, 2004 03:55

But just a point, if he felt Eowyn was capable in battle, why couldn't he have let her go.

I don't know. I think he saw the task of leading his people in Dunharrow as important enough for her. I keep stressing this, I now, but Théoden knew very well that this war is one he'll most likely not survive, and probably not even win. Someone had to stay behind and try to keep his people safe, why not Éowyn? But I'm not sure about this.

That also raises the question about what the pukel-men could have been guarding .....

You're forgiven for bringing that up love

.

My first instinct is to say: the Mountain. Mountains are holy things, especially in primitive cultures. Maybe the mountain was a refuge in old times, or a sacred place (or both). The shape of the road already suggests something of a guarded place, a stronghold. I might be thinking too primitively though.

atalante_star

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 21, 2004 05:35

I keep stressing this, I now, but Théoden knew very well that this war is one he'll most likely not survive, and probably not even win. Someone had to stay behind and try to keep his people safe, why not Éowyn? But I'm not sure about this.

I think that's right. Theoden was needed as a figure head in the battle, and I would say that Eomer as a Marshal of the Mark was too (and the other Marshals). So who was left? Eowyn - related to the King, loved by the Rohirrim, wanting and able to fight and defend their people.

And - being somewhat stereotypical here for a moment - if Theoden and Eomer died, the Rohirrim were likely to be harried throughout their lands .... and as shown throughout nature, it tends to be the female that fights hardest for her family / clan. Now, obviously that's not particularly applicable to humans, but as Tolkien did have a very old-fashioned view of women, I wonder if he did think of Eowyn in the role of protectoress of the Rohirrim. Just a random thought.

My first instinct is to say: the Mountain. Mountains are holy things, especially in primitive cultures. Maybe the mountain was a refuge in old times, or a sacred place (or both). The shape of the road already suggests something of a guarded place, a stronghold. I might be thinking too primitively though.

Hmmmm .... a little cross-over to the books forum .... another "special" mountain. We've got a thread about Caradhras up at the moment, and I'd been thinking about other instances of mountains having life / status.

Figwit

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RE: 5.III. The Muster of Rohan
on: June 22, 2004 07:24

I wonder if he did think of Eowyn in the role of protectoress of the Rohirrim.

I think he did. And I don't doubt that maybe he was even thinking of Haleth at the time.

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