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Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Lord of the Rings » Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: June 21, 2004 04:34
Denethor
He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and girt with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. ' Thus have I walked, and thus now foir many years have I slept,' he said, 'lest with age the body should grow soft and timid.'


Both Denethor and Theoden were aged beyond their prime and both were facing the ultimate battles of their carreers. Theoden, for many years, had Grima Wormtongue administering to him and was in a much weakened state and seemed to be aging poorly, while Denethor strengthened himself by always carrying the weight of all that battle attire, in an attempt to maintain his vigor as he aged. Yet in the end Theoden , despite his years of frailty, came through for his people, while Denethor, despite his years of prepartion ultimately failed his people.

{ also it's too bad for Theoden that no-one in the White City had thought to open up a Bally's or a Gold's Gym}
legolasfan27
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: June 24, 2004 08:59
Don't you find that just a bit weird? What I mean is, both Denethor and Thedoen had their minds messed with by the forces of evil. But Denethor's mind was more seriously warped by his contact with Sauron, whereas Theoden's body seemed more affected by the "poison" Grima fed him. Denethor was bodily prepared for war, but when it comes down to the crunch later! Then here's this frail-looking Theoden, hardly recovered from ensorcelling, runs off to battle in Helm's Deep, then gets ready to come through for Minas Tirith.
In my opinion, it has to do with the way they were before they got entangled with Sauron and Saruman. Theoden wasn't so badly warped because he was made of sterner stuff to begin with, whereas Denethor had problems before he ran afoul of Sauron...just a thought.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: June 25, 2004 09:41
It's an interesting difference indeed. Tolkien has a thing with age, it seems: Aragorn is 83 but looks 40, Pippin looks 12 is a lot older but is still a kid by Hobbit standards, and Denethor and Théoden are old men.

Théoden was told he was weak by Gríma, and so he started to behave like a weak man: if you don't get out of your chair, don't exercise, your muscles become less strong and you really, physically, deteriorate (sp?). Gríma had no real hold over Théoden's mind, so he immobilised him, making him dependant of him for information.

I don't think Denethor was corrupted so much by an outside force as by his own fears and doubts, and his failing hope. He just lives, awaiting his death. Thát's what makes him old, I think.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: June 25, 2004 11:27
Another important difference between Théoden and Denethor: Théoden had been brought into a state of advanced old age by Gríma. He had been "healed" by Gandalf, and saw himself how he used to be, which certainly wasn't how he was and wasn't how he wanted to be. "Speak not the soft words of Wormtongue in my ear!" (From memory, paraphrased.) And Denethor... um, forgot what I was going to say. Give me a day.
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 07, 2004 02:44
I don't really see either Denethor or Theoden as old. Do we know how old they are, are they older than Aragorn, are they younger.

Reading before and after the Quote regarding Denethor removing his cloak. I just see it as a typical 55 - 65 year old man showing that he can still mix it with the boys, if pushed. Don't we all have that 18 year old inside us. I do. And if wearing mail or armour and his sword made him feel that he was strong and able to defend what was his and/or Gondor, well why not.

And Theoden only comes across to me as one who has been beguiled by smooth words, if not a little sorcery. When the demon is removed, so to speak, by Gandalf, then Theoden is the same strong warrior he always was.

Maybe I'm not reading the same things into Tolkien's words as others do, but that's what it is all about isn't it. Surely there are no hard and fast rules about how we should interpret the books, just enjoyment and a place to escape to. Although it is good to consider why a character does what he does.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 07, 2004 03:33
Birthdates ....

2930 Denethor
2931 Aragorn
2948 Theo
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 07, 2004 04:48
Thanks Atalante :love: I knew you would come through with the facts.

So Denethor's is older than Aragorn by a year. And Theoden's the youngest.

I still stand by my concepts though. But at least I know how old they are. :heart:
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 07, 2004 10:55
Maybe I'm not reading the same things into Tolkien's words as others do, but that's what it is all about isn't it. Surely there are no hard and fast rules about how we should interpret the books, just enjoyment and a place to escape to. Although it is good to consider why a character does what he does.


You're quite right, that's the whole purpose of this BC isn't it ? I like your interpretation, but I don't quite agree... I find it difficult to believe Denethor would show his sword to impress Pippin or Gandalf... he feels beyond them, at least that was my impression.

[Edited on 7/7/2004 by Figwit]
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 07, 2004 02:28
Thanks Figwit :love:

I didn't quite mean that Denethor was showing himself to impress Pippin and Gandalf. I meant more that it was a gesture of him not giving in to age. It was more for his own feelings than to impress anyone. A self reassurance if you like.

Do you know what I mean. It's difficult to describe what you have in your mind sometimes. You know what you want to say, but when it's put down in words it doesn't come out quite right.
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 09, 2004 09:56
I find this quote interesting too. Some of you who are more learned in The Lord of the Rings and particularly in the history of Denethor can perhaps answer this for me.

Is there evidence that Denethor ever actually went out into battle? Was he once a great warrior? Did I miss something here? I know he was a successful and great Steward under the circumstances of his reign. Maybe that wasn't enough for him. The real glory in Gondor was left for the renowned fighters -like Boromir.

Until it can proved otherwise (and I hope one of you can answer my questions) I tend to think that Denethor was a want-to-be warrior. It seems a bit absurd to put on all this armour if one has never engaged in battle. Somehow that's not very flattering to Denethor is it?

Maybe he did intend to make one final stand.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 10, 2004 04:40
I think he wore the armour more as a way to stay in shape rather than as self preparation for battle.
He was a loremaster and qute possibly a fair strategist and acted more as a General, by directing the trops rather than leading them into battle. It would be very dificult to keep track of all that was going on with his enemies if he was to travel to the borderss of Gondor. The kingdom was theatened by many foes and in many directions, and he needed to stay put to keep track. He also needed to stay near his libraries and the Pilantir and this would preclude him going afield with the troops. He also had two sons that were very charismatic and did a great job of leading the troops. Once they were grown , he had no need to show himself to the troops as they did a very good job of leadership in his name..
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- June 21st 2004 (5.IV. The Siege of Gondor)
on: July 13, 2004 08:26
Thanks PotbellyHairyfoot,

I guess, as usual, I'm looking for some deeper meaning. Often the best answer is the one right in front of us.

I still find it a bizarre way to keep in shape. But Denethor does not live in the real world nor in our time.

In my mind, I had images of ex-hockey players running around in their full gear (yes, I'm a fellow Canadian) and sleeping in it while dreaming dreams of their glorious youth. Hilarious image, eh? But sad too...
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