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Figwit

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5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: June 27, 2004 09:20

I decided to take these two chapters together, because a lot of events described in these chapters are tied to each other. The questions deal with both chapters.

1. One of the most important characters in these chapters is Dernhelm. When did you know who he was? Do you think Elfhelm knew who he was? If not, why do you think Merry was ignored?
Did these chapters change your opinion about Éowyn, how and why (not)?

2. What do you make of the Wild Men and Ghân-buri-ghân? What are they? What is their symbolic significance in the story?

3. Hope plays, again, a very important part in both chapters. How and where?

4. How was Théoden in these chapters? What did you think of his death? What do you think of Éomer's reaction?

5. What is the symbolic significance of the Witch-king's death?

PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the song at the end of 5.VII.

[Edited on 29/6/2004 by Figwit]

legolas_thranduilion500

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: June 27, 2004 11:58

Hello everyone.
Personally, I DO know who Dernhelm was (Eowyn) and I think that Elfhelm did know who she was, and was a close friend to her... if not a close friend of her, then a friend of Eomer or someone who was close to Eowyn in some way.
I think that the symbolic significance in the death of the King of Angmar is partly that a great evil has been overthrown and that the end of the war is near, because Sauron used mainly the King of Angmar to do his evil little duties and such.
I can't believe no one has posted before me- this is such an interesting topic!!

RubySandybanks

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 01, 2004 11:56

Hi everyone,

Okay, I'll take a go at some of these questions...

Did these chapters change your opinion about Éowyn, how and why (not)?

I suppose my opinion of Éowyn has changed somewhat. I’m still ambivalent about her behaviour. I admit that I do think that she should have stayed and cared for her people as Théoden thought she had. That was an important position after all and there was no shame in it. She also risked the end of her bloodline’s rule by running off to fight. I believed that she was selfish and thinking only of her needs. Of course, selfishness isn’t necessarily always a bad thing (as in this case). She also put Merry in great danger. On the other hand, I can now say that whatever it was that drove her to fight, I’m glad she did. It’s hard to think of another way that the Witch-King’s death could have come about given the prophecy of his death. I’m also glad that she took Merry because he had the opportunity to prove himself and mercifully he survived. Perhaps, her behaviour is not so selfish after all for what is more altruistic than fighting for and being willing to die for one’s people and way of life. I remain in a conundrum concerning Éowyn.

2. What do you make of the Wild Men and Ghân-buri-ghân? What are they? What is their symbolic significance in the story?

I feel rather fond of the Wild Men and Ghân-buri-ghân in particular. They are tribal in nature and prefer to live apart from civilization. They seem drawn into the war not out of choice but out of necessity. There are far too many Orcs in their territory. They are not particularly courageous, as they refuse to fight in the upcoming battle, yet they are significantly helpful. Perhaps their refusal to fight is because there are few of them left and to fight (and die) might mean the end of their kind.

The Wild Men certainly don’t sound pretty to look at but they are unpretentious. They speak the common tongue even though they have their own unique way of doing so. Ghân-buri-ghân has an interesting way of counting. I like how Merry says that the Wild Men remind him of the Púkel-men. And later Merry adds that they all look so much alike that he can’t tell them apart from each other. Isn’t that a generalization that many races make other races? It’s most likely that the Wild Men would say the same thing if they happened to come across a group of Hobbits.

The Wild Men could symbolize a number of things:

a) To show that others (other than the participants) are affected, in one way or another, by war
b) Perhaps they symbolize a peoples’ desire to live in peace in a manner to which they are accustomed
c) That first impressions are not always accurate
d) The suspiciousness of change
e) A simpler way of life: of being one with nature

5. What is the symbolic significance of the Witch-king's death?

In Gandalf’s chess game, it would be the check. The Witch-king's death was like the beginning of the end for Sauron. His death would have to be a severe blow to Sauron as the Witch-King seems to be Sauron's weapon of choice. Fear.

Ding Dong the witch is dead.
Which old witch?
The wicked witch.
Ding dong the wicked witch is dead.

Fearian

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 02, 2004 04:28

I think the death of the Witch King of Angmar was a very important element to the story, not just to the story, but also the storytelling; it is so easy for even a great and powerful sequence such as Pelennor to leave audiences battle weary very quickly if their is no dramatic climax, such as there waas in the end. That goes for either a book or movie. And as RubySandybanks so eloquently put it, it basically showed Sauron the folly of his pride in his power, that this could be the beginning of the end for Him, or at least that His demise is possible.
For some reason when I think of Ghân-buri-ghân and/company, this picture of a short stubby version of Squanto comes to mind.... interesting... they once again just heap more and more of a depth of reality on an already deeper-the-Mariana-Trench-deep-story! Because, we have to think: behind the scenes, these guys have their own seperate culture, way of speaking, their own accent in the Common Tongue, perhaps their own Gods, their own customs, and so on...
Eowyn I think finally started acting like an independant... regardless of the female factor, she started acting like an independant PERSON, something to fight for, and to die for, in my opinion; at the same time she showed her true love for her family, her nation and her King.

RubySandybanks

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 02, 2004 11:04

Good points Fearian.

Now to continue:

1. One of the most important characters in these chapters is Dernhelm. When did you know who he was?

I don’t think I fully understood who Dernhelm was until Merry mentioned that Dernhelm’s voice sounded familiar. In the next paragraph, of course, Dernhelm announces that he is none other than Éowyn, a woman. I recall wondering who would defy the king by taking Merry along. Obeying orders seems to be central to the Rohirrim culture. And who would have the look that Merry described back in The Muster of Rohan, “He caught the glint of clear grey eyes, and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.” I can’t see Tolkien making such a random statement so I assumed that answer would later be revealed to us.

Do you think Elfhelm knew who he was? If not, why do you think Merry was ignored?

I do think that Elfhelm did know who Dernhelm was. Elfhelm, as Marshal of the éored in which they rode, would undoubtedly know all the men under his command. Elfhelm and Dernhelm seemed to have some kind of understanding, as Merry points out. Poor Merry, all of Elfhelm’s men treated him as if he was invisible. I suppose Dernhelm told Elfhelm to tell the men to ignore Merry so attention would not be drawn to Merry. If attention had been drawn to Merry perhaps Dernhelm’s plan would be revealed.

I don’t understand really why Merry continued to be ignored after the fall of Théoden and Éowyn. My heart went out to him; he was so utterly alone. Any ideas?

3. Hope plays, again, a very important part in both chapters. How and where?

The Ride of the Rohirrim: Incidences of hope:

Ghân-buri-Ghân’s assistance provides the Rohirrim with important information and time saved. The alternate route allows the Rohirrim to come upon their enemy from an unexpected place.

Ghân-buri-Ghân tells King Théoden that the enemy believes that their friends are watching all the roads into Minas Tirith. He says, “They are unwary and do not look about them.” To which Éomer (who was listening) replies,

“Good tidings! Even in this gloom hope gleams again. Our Enemy’s devices oft serve us in his despite. The accursed darkness itself has been a cloak to us.”

As he was leaving a light came in Ghân-buri-Ghân”s eyes. The light implies something positive. He cries out,

“Wind is changing!”

A bit later out-riders who had been almost to the wall of Minas Tirith inform the King that the city is burning and besieged with many foes. They say that there are few foes on the out-wall and that all are busy with destruction. The enemy is not paying attention to events around them. One of the outriders says to the King,

"Do you remember the Wild Man’s words, lord? I live upon the open Wold in days of peace; Wídfara is my name, and to me also the air brings messages. Already the wind is turning. There comes a breath out of the South; there is a sea-tang in it, faint though it be. The morning will bring new things. Above the reek it will be dawn when you pass the wall."

After this Théoden speaks this inspirational bit,

"Now is the hour come, Riders of the Mark, sons of Eorl! Foes and fire are before you, and your homes far behind. Yet, though you fight upon an alien field, the glory that you reap there shall be your own for ever. Oaths ye have taken: now fulfil them all, to lord and land and league of friendship!"

At the end of the chapter Théoden gazes out at the “agony” of Minas Tirith. He seems shrunken with age and in great despair. Then there was a flash of light and a boom and Théoden changed. (Could this be Gandalf’s work?) He sat up tall and proud and gave perhaps his most memorable call to arms, “…in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before,”

Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now, to Gondor!

Very inspirational for the Rohirrim I'd imagine.

At the same time Merry felt a change:

“Wind was in his face! Light was glimmering. Far, far away, in the South the clouds could be dimly seen as remote grey shapes, rolling up, drifting: morning lay beyond them.”

In all this darkness, isn't it great to feel that a change is coming!

LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 03, 2004 03:26

1. One of the most important characters in these chapters is Dernhelm. When did you know who he was?

I don't remember what I thought when I first read the book... I think I wasn't really thinking about the characters, just reading, and didn't know who Dernhelm was until "You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am..." *sigh* I wish I read the book this way the first time around instead of rushing through it.

Do you think Elfhelm knew who he was? If not, why do you think Merry was ignored?

I think Elfhelm did know, but I'm not sure. I don't think Elfhelm gave an order to ignore Dernhelm or Merry, but the riders in his éored saw him pretending they weren't there and followed his lead.

Did these chapters change your opinion about Éowyn, how and why (not)?

Disregard my name; it was picked more or less randomly.

Yes, I like Éowyn better in this chapter. She was suicidal and misguided, and shouldn't have ridden to the Pelennor. But when she saw Théoden fall, she was the only one with the courage to remain standing and even face the Witch-king. [quote[ Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father. Right through the charge Merry had been borne unharmed by him, until the Shadow came; and the Windfola had thrown them in his terror, and now ran wild upon the plain...
"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
..."Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey!..."
A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

3. Hope plays, again, a very important part in both chapters. How and where?

Hope in these chapters seems to be a roller coaster of highs and lows: The beggining of "The Ride of the Rohirrim" is dark and suspensful, hope as the Rohirrim prepare to ride into the Pelennor, despair as Théoden seems ready to give up, there is a change in the wind and a bang as Théoden cries "in a loud voice, more clear than any there had heard a mortal man achieve before", a low as Théoden falls and the Rohirrim are overwhelmed by the Haradrim and Witch-king, hope as Dernhelm/Éowyn kills the Witch-king, sadness as she "dies", despair as the Corsairs of Umbar seem to be coming, and hope and happiness as Aragorn is revealed and Éowyn is shown to be alive. Okay, that was a really long sentence.

RubySandybanks

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 03, 2004 10:50

4. How was Théoden in these chapters?

Théoden is amazing in these chapters. A true and noble king. He inspires his men and sets an example for them. He is diplomatic, wise, brave, and caring right to the end.

What did you think of his death? :cry:

Théoden’s death is tragic and made all the more so since it is Snowmane that inadvertently caused it by falling on him. Théoden’s death seemed almost inevitable; he had foreshadowed it earlier. He died with great dignity. He was comforted knowing he would go to his fathers' without shame since it was he that killed the King of the Haradrim. His was a death worthy of many songs and poems.

Off topic: I have to admit that I was most disturbed by Snowmane’s death. Perhaps it was because he was an innocent caught up in a great battle. I was certain that Tolkien would just leave Snowmane’s death unmentioned after the fact. And then later, Tolkien mentions that Snowmane was buried in a grave with a stone placed upon it that read,

Faithful servant, yet master’s bane,
Lightfoot’s foal, swift Snowmane.

Upon Snowmane’s “Howe” grass grew green and tall. That part was a wonderful surprise!

What do you think of Éomer's reaction?

I think Éomer's reaction is completely understandable. He is under enormous stress and now all of a sudden he is king. Not only does he have to say goodbye to his beloved uncle/father, he has to take command over all. He knows he must be strong for his men and courageously tries to keep his composure by saying strong words to his men, “Weep not overmuch!…” Yet he cannot help but weep himself.

Éomer's reaction to Éowyn’s presence at the battle is even more dramatic. Seeing her and thinking that she is dead seem to catapult him into a state of madness. I imagine it is the combination of both calamities that cause his mind to temporarily snap. He is not thinking clearly as he rides out to meet the enemy. Later it is revealed that Éomer’s rage betrays him and because of it he and his men are surrounded by the enemy.

At this point Éomer does not know his sister is alive nor that it is her who helped to slay the Witch-King.

It’s interesting, too, that others are upset with Éowyn’s presence as well. One of the Rohirrim says to Imrahil, “…we knew not of her riding until this hour and greatly we rue it.” I’m looking forward to finding out what happens in this brother/sister relationship.

Merry on being ignored:
When Éomer and his men came across Théoden and Éowyn he (and his men) would most likely have been too distraught to have noticed Merry. He did have his gear on after all and he was on the ground so they would not have noticed his height. Still... he is ignored after this. This still bothers me.

RubySandybanks

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 07, 2004 09:30

LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan,

I couldn't agree with you more when you said:

Quote - Hope in these chapters seems to be a roller coaster of highs and lows...

I shall continue now with the theme of hope. I've been obsessing about it lately. A lot.

Hope in The Battle of Pelennor Fields

In The Ride of the Rohirrim we see hope much in the form of foreshadowing and inspiration.

In this chapter there really isn’t much hope, but that is not to say that things are as hopeless as they seem at times.

I, for one, was filled with hope when the Witch-King ignored Merry and “heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.” It turned out to be the worst mistake of the Witch-King’s life or phantom life in this case. As readers, we know that it is never a good idea to underestimate the power of a hobbit. This is the one spot that Merry benefited from being ignored. A bit of an irony somehow.

Théoden gives us hope in the form of encouragement as he is dying. He speaks to Merry of peace. He speaks of Éomer and Éowyn. We are hopeful that these three will live on. Soft words in such a cruel environment.

The passing of the king’s banner to Éomer – Théoden has not given up hope for the survival of the Rohirrim.

I found the passing of the Westernesse blade quite hopeful somehow. It had done a mighty service (with Merry’s help of course). I felt optimistic just knowing that the Witch-King was dead. Tra la la la la…

The fact that grass grew on Snowmane’s Howe shows there is a future.

Imrahil making the discovery that Éowyn is alive. Very encouraging. She may have otherwise died if she didn’t receive some kind of healing.

Others came to the aid of Éomer when, in his rage and grief, he made a horrible error in judgement. Again optimism for his survival.

For a time, at the sight of the black sails of the Corsairs of Umber, Éomer felt, “hope die in his heart, and the wind that he had blessed he now called accursed.” Then, just as we ourselves feel overwhelmed, Éomer rallies his strength and his men. He addresses his men with these memorable words:

Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

This inspirational speech spurs on the fighting men of Rohan. They will fight again to their last breath. There will be no giving in to despair.

The unfurling of the great standard was, for me, the greatest reason to hope that our heroes would ultimately be victorious.

"Upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count."

Hurrah! The coming of Aragorn just, “in the nick of time”.

Éomer gives us a lesson about hope:

"Hope oft deceives, and I knew not then that you were a man foresighted. Yet twice blessed is help unlooked for, and never was a meeting of friends more joyful."

Somehow from this point forward we sense that the tide has changed. Our heroes, except for Frodo and Sam, are reunited and amongst friends. And together they are a formidable force for Sauron to keep at bay.

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 15, 2004 10:57

I'm playing total catch-up now and heaven knows how long it will take me to do so.

I also don't know if I'll be answering the question in any strict order, so bear with me.

5. What is the symbolic significance of the Witch-king's death?
Simply, the beginning of the end for Sauron, the turning of the tide, as was with D-Day in World War II.

1. One of the most important characters in these chapters is Dernhelm. When did you know who he was? Do you think Elfhelm knew who he was? If not, why do you think Merry was ignored?
Did these chapters change your opinion about Éowyn, how and why (not)?

I have to be honest, and trying to recall when I first read RotK, I think I didn't realise until just before Dernhelm revealed himself on the battlefield. I was probably too engrossed and taken up with the descriptions of the action, to think about it. But, as everyone was when discovering who Dernhelm was, if they hadn't already guessed, I was thrilled that it was Eowyn and cheered when she despatched the Witch-King, albeit too late for Theoden.

I think Merry was ignored, because perhaps Elfhelm did know who Dernhelm was and neither wanted the Hobbit to know who Dernhelm was. If Elfhelm and Dernhelm were too friendly with Merry, the game could have been up.

No, my opinion of Eowyn wasn't changed. She was doing what she wanted. Fair enough, she wanted to protect Theoden, but I think she still wanted to show her prowess in battle. I don't think that she particularly thought about neglecting her duties of looking after her people.

I think I'll leave it there for now. I'll spend a little time re-reading and absorbing characters and information before I attempt the remaining questions. :love: At least I'm part way to catching up. Whew!!!

[Edited on 16/7/2004 by Rosearialelven]

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 16, 2004 09:31

I've double posted as I am running late and no-one has come to comment. :love:

2. What do you make of the Wild Men and Ghân-buri-ghân? What are they? What is their symbolic significance in the story?
I felt the Wild Men and Ghân-buri-ghân played a pivotal part in this chapter, and indeed in the outcome of the war. As was pointed out, they did indeed resemble the Pukelmen and perhaps were lost descendants. They were independent and whilst not wanting to take part in any battle, they were prepared to help, thus ridding themselves of their enemies, the Orcs.

I got the feeling that Ghân-buri-ghân felt he was as good as, if not better, than the Rohirrim, and definitely an equal of Theoden. He, quite emotionless, and treated Eomer's comment 'How will you and your folk help us" with displeasure and perhaps a little disdain. All he wanted was to be able to get the Rohirrim on their way, get rid of the troublesome Orcs and get back to their old life in the woods.

Symbolically, I suppose the Wild Men could be the light at the end of the tunnel or the bend in a long straight road.

3. Hope plays, again, a very important part in both chapters. How and where?
Hope does indeed spring eternal in these two chapters. Albeit like a yo-yo. There was certainly a sense of hope in the assistance of the Wild Men. It was the darkest hour before the dawn, imaged by Merry feeling the presence of the wind. Hope that indeed there was a change in the air. Like after a storm and the clouds begin to break, allowing the sun to filter through. An uplifting feeling after the gloom.

The hope with the Ride of the Rohirrim, the people of Gondor must have felt relief when they knew they had arrived.

And finally the 'cavalry', no bugle call, but the sight of the Standard of Elendil flying on the first ship and the knowledge that Aragorn was on his way.

4. How was Théoden in these chapters? What did you think of his death? What do you think of Éomer's reaction?
Théoden was resurrected. He had regained his strength and knew what he had to do. Once more he was in charge and he had regained his pride. He knew he would not die infirm or hiding away, but with glory as his forefathers.

I was naturally sad, deeply sad, but happy for Théoden that he was to die a brave death. He had done all he could and given his life in his efforts. I was more sad at the fact that he didn't know that Éowyn was there with him and that she had killed the Witch-King.

I thought Éomer reacted as anyone would seeing a loved one dying. Perhaps he felt regret that he couldn't have been by Théoden's side. He may have appeared brusque with his words ~'Mourn not overmuch!' and 'War now calls us!'~ but perhaps this was his way of coping with Théoden's death and he knew that the King wanted him to take up the Banner and finish the job. He knew what now was expected of him and bore it as a true son of a King.

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 28, 2004 08:24

I was very upset when Théoden died, even though it was more like a second life. He was in a way 'resurrected' (I like that term) but that makes it even worse in my eyes: it was a chance to die a proper death, but the fact that he does die makes it look as if that was all he was meant to do from the beginning: die. And that's such a pessimistic thought.

[Edited on 28/7/2004 by atalante_star]

atalante_star

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 28, 2004 10:53

I was very upset when Théoden died, even though it was more like a second life. He was in a way 'resurrected' (I like that term) but that makes it even worse in my eyes: it was a chance to die a proper death, but the fact that he does die makes it look as if that was all he was meant to do from the beginning: die. And that's such a pessimistic thought.

Why is that a pessimistic thought? He has to die - every human has to die (well, apart from Tuor :dizzy: ). And what better for a Rohir than to die so gloriously in battle? To die a death that would be told in songs and tales from thence forth?

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 30, 2004 05:47

Well, I don't know... If he'd 'returned amongst the living' to complete some sort of task... I guess in a way he did, but it doesn't feel the same way: there's a difference between winning a battle and living through it, and restoring your kingdom and all that; and dying a glorious death in battle. I know how important that is for the Rohirrim, but it's almost as if everything else didn't matter: uniting the Rohirrim, appointing Éowyn as a leader of his people, confronting Saruman, leading his army to Gondor... as if it all was just something that happened between dawn and death... Does that make sense?

atalante_star

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 30, 2004 06:30

Yes, I see what you mean .... I'm just so immersed in Anglo-Saxon poetry at the moment, I'm looking at everything from that point-of-view

I just can't see his death as pessimistic. Incredibly sad, yes, but I could not imagine a better way for him to die. But I don't see that dying will in any way denigrate his other achievements. Of course, just after his death, people are going to focus mainly on the battle, but through time I would guess that people would look back over his whole life. Even if we look at the Lament for Théoden and the Burial Song of Théoden, they contain his ride to Gondor and the muster of the Rohirrim:

From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning
With thane and captain rode Thengel's son:
To Edoras he came, the ancient halls
Of the Mark-wardens mist-enshrouded;
Golden timbers were in gloom mantled.
Farewell he bade to his free people,
Hearth and high-seat, and the hallowed places,
Where long he had feasted ere the light faded,
Forth rode the king, fear behind him,
Fate before him. Fealty kept he;
Oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them.
Forth rode Théoden. Five nights and days
East and onward rode the Eorlingas
Through Folde and Fenmarch and the Firienwood,
Six thousand spears to Sunlending,
Mundburg the mighty under Mindolluin,
Sea-king's city in the South-kingdom
Foe-beleaguered, fire-encircled.
Doom drove them on. Darkness took them,
Horse and horsemen; hoofbeats afar
Sank into silence, so the songs tell us.

Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising
he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheating.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
over death, over dread, over doom lifted
out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.

And I know I'm telling you stuff you already know .... but I really don't think that his other deeds are lost. And as much as I absolutely hate the fast he died, if he had to die, then a death in battle would be what he would wish for, a death - and a life - that would be remembered in song.

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 31, 2004 06:51

Well, objectively I know you're right

but still, I don't really feel it. Perhaps I'm just depressed

atalante_star

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: July 31, 2004 07:59

LOL - I know you know I'm objectively right

LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 04, 2004 02:41

Butting in...
I think you're both right: From an objective point of view, or Théoden's point of view, it wasn't incredibly sad and it probably was the kind of death Théoden would have hoped for. But from a reader's point of view or Merry's, it's one of the saddest moments in the book, and it's written to be that way.

"Farewell, Master Holbytla! he said. "My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!"
Merry could not speak, but wept anew. "Forgive me, lord," he said at last, if I broke your command, and yet have done no more in your service than to weep at our parting."
The old king smiled. "Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen oto your herb-lore."

The paragraphs immediately after and pages before it are sad or setting up for Théoden's death to be really sad, even if Théoden wouldn't agree. Actually, I think the contrasting objective/Rohirrim point of view and reader/Merry point of views make it more upsetting.
Am I making any sense?

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 04, 2004 08:53

Yes you are! That's the perfect way of putting it! :love:

atalante_star

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 04, 2004 09:15

Yes that makes perfect sense

I'm obviously being (for some reason :blush

very empathic with Theoden - while it's obviously incredibly sad for those around, I just can't be too sad for *him*.

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 05, 2004 03:37

I hope you don't mind my putting my pennyworth in.

I have to agree with Atalante, although my feelings for Theoden don't run as deep as hers.

The Rohirrim were a culture where glorious death was welcome. To die in your bed would not have sat well with them, as in many cultures, either real or fantasy.

The Native American, The Viking and The Klingon.

Poor Merry must have been devastated, but Theoden didn't want him to grieve, he wanted Merry to remember him fondly. Theoden, after his traumatic experiences was happy to die the way of his forefathers and to enter into their august company with his head held high.

Apart from the very end of the Trilogy, I also think that Theoden's death is one of the saddest parts of the books.

LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 06, 2004 11:49

The Native American, The Viking and The Klingon

Um, I've heard them mentioned, but I don't like Star Trek, so... what's a Klingon? lol *feels incredibly ignorant*

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 06, 2004 09:32

Klingon?! *gasps* You know, the Uruks in the movie always reminded me of Klingons but...

Eh, the Klingons are a race of warriors who drink bloodwine, speak a throaty language and are all about 'honour' and 'courage' and that stuff... They're very ugly.

I guess I can see the comparison but I never pictured the Rohirrim as blooddrinking ugly guys with women who are better warriors than men. Not to mention their ideas of 'romance'.

atalante_star

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 06, 2004 10:13

Klingons have the courage and strength ideals of the Rohirrim and the looks and temperament of orcs

Never thought you'd see a pic of Klingons in the Book Club, did you?

Figwit

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RE: 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
on: August 07, 2004 12:19

No I didn't. You could have picked Worf though, he's an attractive Klingon. He's the *only* attractive Klingon

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