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Figwit
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Post 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 12, 2004 07:14
1. The character of Aragorn is crucial in this scene. Is all that 'hands of a healer'-stuff just an easy solution (a deus ex machina if you will) or is it a substential part of his character? What does he do when he sits with Faramir? Why does he take on so many names?

2. Aragorn, Éomer and Gandalf debate Éowyn. Who do you agree with (most) and why? Since I spotted PbHf's Quote of the Week too late, let's move this question here, please.

3. There's a lot of mourning in this chapter. Who's grief affected you most?

some questions suggested by PbHf:
4. It is clear now that Gandalf is the overall leader of the forces united against Sauron. How has this come about? Is this the role he was meant to take?
And I'm going to add his own comment too, because I find it interesting:
It seemed to me that Gandalf's natural role was twofold; that of a wise and trusted advisor to the leaders , and the natural counter against the Ringwraiths; but with the failing of Denethor he was forced to take the overall leadership of Gondor in the battle .
I find it interesting that for Aragorn to take over Gondor , there would need to be a ceremony, but nothing like that is necessary for Gandalf. No ceremony or acknowledgment was needed - he just took control when it was necesary.
~ PbHf

5) asAragorn is about to start work on healing Faramir he states
' Would that elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race , and has the greater power.

To Which race is Aragorn referrng ? Is it men, half-elves, descendants of Eäendil? Were all in the line of Elrond and Elros possessed of the ability to heal, or was it a learned skill taught to sons by their fathers and possibly taught by Elrond to the chieftains of the Rangers?

As ever, if you have any more questions, pm them to me.




[Edited on 13/7/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Aervir
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Post RE: 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 12, 2004 11:03
Great, now that I'm actually trying to answer the Book Club questions, just for once, the lights here in the whole building just went out... it must be some kind of power failure. So these circumstances (like the fact that I'm sitting in the dark and trying to read in front of my laptop screen...) might explain any incorrect quotes. So please accept my apologies for any that might occur.


1. The character of Aragorn is crucial in this scene. Is all that 'hands of a healer'-stuff just an easy solution (a deus ex machina if you will) or is it a substantial part of his character?

It is certainly more than a mere deus-ex-machina device, but I don't know if it is an integral part of his character. It's rather a part of his function and his status. IMHO, Tolkien was heavily influenced by the medieval notion of a king's blessedness (Is this even an English word? The technical term in German is Königsheil - you might translate it as blessings bestowed by the king), which goes back to pagan times in the early Middle Ages (or even before that) when kingship often arose not only of the function as the war captain of a tribe or people, but out of the office of some priest or sacred leader as well. (I don't remember the details: There should be lots of information on that topic in an encyclopadia of the Middle Ages. Any history students around?) And the true king's healing touch is mentioned in Macbeth, too - a play some aspects of which Tolkien did try to rewrite after all.
So Aragorn has to be established as a healer (not only as a warrior) before he can lay claim to the kingship or be recognized as king, as Faramir immediately does. (The king's possible part as a martyr or sacrifice, however, gets transferred to Frodo in the book.) As part of a larger symbolic design, it could also be kind of metonymy for the restoration of the kingdom as a whole.
When Aragorn heals the wounded, like Faramir, he seems to wander in a shadow world himself (as if he wandered in some dark vale ), but the athelas has obviously the ability to recall to any person some aspect of happiness and the things this person values most. When Aragorn treats Faramir, for example, it's a smell like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun, a description that somehow reminds me of Ithilien, even if this sunny land might just as well be a transcendental realm - which points out the fact Aragorn's healing powers also include the spiritual restoration of his kingdom after the years of warfare. This, however, might actually be some kind of symbolic deus-ex-machina in order to ensure the certainty of a happy ending for Minas Tirith after its terrible sufferings... of course, this notion becomes again credible if you accept the quasi-divine status of a king, which brings me back to the beginning of my answer.

2. Aragorn, Éomer and Gandalf debate Éowyn. Who do you agree with (most) and why?

Well, I agree with the person from whose response my signature is taken , i.e. with Gandalf. I don't think Éomer seems to grasp the whole situation fully. IMHO, he simply seems to imply that his sister is brought to such deadly despair only because of her infatuation with Aragorn - a notion which is a bit ridiculous to me. Sounds like something that an overprotective and overbearing (and not very imaginative) elder brother might say. Aragorn, however, understands that her grief lies much deeper, and sees in her feelings for him her actual wish for glory and great deeds and lands far from the fields of Rohan. IMHO, this is the moment when he shows most empathy for her (but that's a purely subjective notion based on my reading of her character ). What I don't like about his comments on Éowyn is the fact that he still seems very patronizing, e.g. when talking about her being pittted against a foe beyond her strength and comparing her to a beautiful flower blighted by early frost. Very flattering maybe, but very patronizing as well. IMHO, Gandalf shows the most caring attitude (probably because he's an Istari and one of Nienna's Maia). His words describe a rather favorable character: a strong-willed young woman (who grew up in a culture based on the glorification of warfare and strength in battle, which isn't mentioned here, but we might keep that in mind), who has to witness her "father"'s premature loss of masculine strength and power - and who is bound by duty to his side and may not even do anything about it. She may not even go out and seek "revenge" on the enemy that attacks from without. She is poisoned by the enemy from within, by a voice that speaks to her of loss of honour. I think she's a very proud person, and thinking her king to be dishonoured by his strange weakness, the glory of the royal house and by extension of the people gone, and herself trapped in this hopeless situation broke her spirit. And, BTW, I do think the quote from my sig to be one of the best lines in LOTR. Gandalf's words sum up Éowyn so well as I've just attempted to explain.

[Edited on 12/7/2004 by Aervir]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 13, 2004 04:43
Merry's grief over the death of Theoden affected me the most. He is greatly saddened over the loss of a new friend. In war, many end up being present at the death of a companion and it leaves a lsating effect on them. Merry reminds of this with his statement that he will never be able to light up again without thinking of Theoden and the conversations they'll never be able to have.

I've heard it stated that often , during the Vietnam war ( and probably in most other wars), soldiers were very hesitant to get to know the new recruits, as they were far more likely to become casualties soon . It was far easier on their mental state not to become friends with them until it appeared that they were more likely to stay around for awhile. It is tough to lose someone close to you so they reacted but not becoming close to anyone new.

[Edited on 13/7/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 16, 2004 08:34
Aervir

Thank goodness for laptops! Thanks for your food for thought. I look forward to your future posts.

1. The character of Aragorn is crucial in this scene. Is all that 'hands of a healer'-stuff just an easy solution (a deus ex machina if you will) or is it a substential part of his character?

I believe that having the ‘hands of the healer’ is a substantial part of Aragorn’s character.
When Aragorn asks Ioreth if there is any athelas (or kingsfoil) to be found, she responds with surprise and says that she has never heard that it had “any great virtue” other than to “smell sweet”. She then adds, “Wholesome, maybe is nearer”. A little later the herb-master says of kingsfoil, “For it has no virtue that we know of, save perhaps to sweeten a fouled air, or to drive away some passing heaviness.” The herb-master mentions the rhyme passed down for years but largely dismisses it as an old wive’s tale. Now, you would think that the herb-master and a woman who works in The House of Healing would have discovered the virtues of kingsfoil long ago if the herb had some major healing qualities. The herb-master mentions that the old people use an infusion of kingsfoil for headaches. The herb is of little consequence to either Ioreth or the herb-master. I get the feeling that they both find Aragorn’s request odd indeed!

It is only in Aragorn the King’s hands that the herb takes on special significance. It is the combination of his breath (the very essence of his life) and the touch of his hands, which bring the herb to life. The herb clears the air and lightens the hearts of those lucky enough to breathe it in Aragorn’s presence. It is obviously a much more profound, “driving away of some passing heaviness” as indicated by Ioreth’s response. She says, “Well now! Who would have believed it? The weed is better than I thought.” Each individual seems to experience a scent to suit his or her emotional needs and/or memories.

For Aragorn to claim the mighty throne of Gondor he would require many proofs. I believe the ‘hands of a healer’ is one more of those proofs and of considerable importance to his character.

What does he do when he sits with Faramir?

To me it seems that Aragorn is at first diagnosing Faramir with his hands. Determining that it not his body that is failing but rather his will to live, Aragorn repeatedly calls his name hoping that Faramir will come out of the shadow of impending doom and into the light of life. Aragorn is having a life or death battle of wills with Faramir’s psyche.

Why does he take on so many names?

It’s clear that Aragorn has been around and is learned in lore. There are many tales and poems about the return of the king stretching back into the distant past. It seems that the different names are not only in different languages but change according to status and time. Languages evolve and disappear. Names too change according to different languages, dialects, and history. I'm sure someone has a much better answer. A HoME buff??

3. There's a lot of mourning in this chapter. Who's grief affected you most?

I have to go along with you here PotbellyHairyfoot. Merry’s grief is heart breaking and made even worse because he is in shock and under the dread of the Black Breath. He has lost his king and father figure. He is confused and is certain that he is going to be buried. Merry's grief affected me the most because, to me, Merry (a small cog) is easier to identify with than kings and wizards.

Merry showed us in the chapter entitled Strider just how tough he is; shortly after his experience with the Black Breath he was found laughing at Frodo’s poem. Here again, we see that wonderful Hobbit resilience. Upon awakening he says, “I am hungry. What is the time?”

I just knew somehow that Merry would be okay.

PotbellyHairyfoot

Your example of the Viet Nam War is excellent here. For the sake of survival and one's sanity, it probably is a good idea to stay detached in a war. Sad but true.

I can't imagine how horrible it must be to lose someone close in a war zone. It must be excruciatingly painful to anyone who has done so including Merry.
Figwit
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Post RE: 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 28, 2004 08:19
4. It is clear now that Gandalf is the overall leader of the forces united against Sauron. How has this come about? Is this the role he was meant to take?

I have been thinking about this, and personally I always got back to the idea of the White Council and why the Istari were sent to Middle-earth in the first place. If Gandalf was sent by the Valar to protect Middle-earth against Sauron, than he *is* the leader in this battle. He goes before Aragorn, even, because in a way it's *his* war. With the blue wizards vanished, Saruman gone evil and Radagast talking to birds the better part of the time; there's really no one else left to lead Middle-earth in battle.

Is this making sense?
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 5.VIII. The Houses of Healing
on: July 29, 2004 08:23
Oh, that's interesting Figwit... Thanks for the insight. Hopefully someday I'll get around to reading the Sil and some of Tolkien's other work. I'm sure it would greatly enhance LotR.

In the meantime:

4. It is clear now that Gandalf is the overall leader of the forces united against Sauron. How has this come about?

Gandalf has taken on leadership role out of necessity it seems. He is a transitory leader: a leader who does not intend or want to stay as leader but smoothes the transitions from one leader to the next. Or from one catastrophic event to the next. He seems perfectly fitted to the task because of his profound intuitive skills and his deep understanding of the characteristics of the peoples of Middle Earth.

Two of the most significant transitional phases are found in Return of the King: the deaths of Denethor and of Théoden. Gondor is left without a leader when Denethor commits suicide and Faramir is incapacitated due to the state of his health. The situation is critical with the enemy attacking the city without mercy. Most of the Gondorians and their allies have been struck with despair: many have given up. It is Gandalf who rides around the city on Shadowfax bringing hope, inspiring all. I’m quite sure that those whom he affected realized Gandalf could indeed be trusted. Many had seen Gandalf with Faramir and/or knew of his intervention to rescue Faramir (and others).

Gandalf is a magnificent vision in his white robes riding white Shadowfax. A light in all that darkness.

Most importantly the men of Gondor and their allies are dependent on their leaders. Without someone to take the helm all quickly turns to chaos. These men are accustomed to taking orders not giving them. They seem so conditioned to this that they may have a great deal of difficulty making choices as to what to do. They need a strong, authoritative leader. It seems crucial that someone with wisdom must take control. Someone like Gandalf.

Aragorn is not yet willing to take on his role as King. Not without a proper ceremony (which seem to be of critical importance to humans). We, as humans, are ever trying to confirm our social roles with rituals and ceremonies. Even Aragorn prefers the counsel of Gandalf in matters concerning Sauron. He realizes that there is much more at stake in this war than Gondor. Middle Earth itself and all its inhabitants will be affected by the outcome of this war for better or for worse.

Éomer is needed by his own people. He is caught up in the tragedies of his own life. Furthermore, I don’t believe the Rohirrim were ever meant to lead other than their own people. They have come to the aid of Gondor in its most needful hour.

It’s interesting that PbHf says that Gandalf doesn’t need a ceremony. I think it’s simply because Gandalf, as a wizard, doesn’t need a ceremony to confirm who he is. He is above all that. He doesn’t feel he has to prove himself. His proof is in his actions and his words. And Gandalf really stands out in a crowd, wouldn’t you say?

Is this the role he was meant to take?

Yes, I believe it was. But I shall have to think about this some more…
** Figwit just gave me some insight into this question.
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