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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 18, 2004 02:26
This quote is suggested by Figwit,

Gimli starts this quote talking with Legolas;
'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in summer, and they fail of their promise'
"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said legolas.'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-fo. The deeds of men will outlast us, Gimli.'
'And yet come to naught in the end but might have beens, I guess,' said the Dwarf.





I do enjoy this quote . It is a great metaphor, liking the Kingdoms of men to freshly sown crops.

RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 21, 2004 08:48
I also enjoy this quote. Gimli and Legolas seem to understand the ways of men. It’s not a positive view but a view that Gimli, as a Dwarf, and Legolas, as an Elf, seemed resigned to.

A bit Darwinian I’d say as well especially when Legolas says, “Yet seldom do they fail of their seed”. That seems to imply ‘survival of the fittest’ –the fittest not necessarily being the race who is most intelligent, capable or creative imho, but rather the race who has reproduce potency. The Dwarves have few women and because of this the dwarf race is slow to grow. The Elves are leaving Middle Earth.

They seem to imply that men are resilient and evolving: that the race of men will continue through pestilence, catastrophes, war etc.

I like to think of it this way:

To me, the Hobbits represent the common people. Look at Sam’s contribution alone to the population! lol The common folk are by far the most prolific.

The Kings, Princes and Stewards represent the ruling class. They only have a handful of children. Even the Gondorian and Rohirrim commoners would most likely find it difficult to keep up with Hobbit reproduction.

The Dwarves I see as artisans. With mass production on the rise even in Middle Earth it’s no wonder that the Dwarf race is on the decline. Building and creating are central to their lives.

The Elves, I see as the truly enlightened ones, rare indeed. Elves represent, to me, those few who have reached the Self Actualization phase of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs -like Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Jesus, Buddha to name a few.

Yes, a wonderul metaphor indeed.
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 21, 2004 12:28
I always thought this quote was more directly about men... rather than kingdoms.

"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said legolas.'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-fo.


This always seemed to me about the passing on of the blood of kings... they produce heirs, the original kings die and rot, and yet when the line seems to have failed and the majesty of the original kings is forgotten it springs up again- the blood lines run true.

gilraen_22
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 22, 2004 03:11
I'll quote the same line again (sorry)...
"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas.'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for.
I guess this line can be interpreted two ways: literal 'seed' as in heirs and a strong lineage, or 'seed' as in deeds and values passed on through generations. How it was intended is anybody's guess, but I'm leaning more toward the 'literal seed'.

This may be a bit of a stretch (or too obvious, not sure which), but Legolas' line seems to define Aragorn and his new-found (ah, newly 'publicized') heritage. It seemed that the line of Isildur had passed away, and indeed the Stewards of Gondor have become so used to saying 'until the King comes again' (etc.) that they say it only for formality's sake, and no longer believe that any person will come to claim the throne. Thus in Aragorn, Isildur has not 'failed of his seed'... it just lay in the 'dust' of the wild as as a line of Rangers and did 'spring up again' when the need arose. Good quote!
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 28, 2004 08:38
'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in summer, and they fail of their promise'
"Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas.'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-fo. The deeds of men will outlast us, Gimli.'
'And yet come to naught in the end but might have beens, I guess,' said the Dwarf.


It seems so very true: we, humans, are very much like that. We start out with the best intentions, then something happens and we lose hope, we let things fall to pieces and lose ourselves in mourning.

But all in all this quote is very optimistic about Men: they come through in the end. Perhaps Tolkien is trying to tell us that if we push through a little more, we might leave a great legacy, in stead of a legacy of might-have-beens, as Gimli put it.

Come to think of it, perhaps Gimli's rather negative evaluation of the 'deeds of Men' has to do with the nature of the Dwarves as opposed to that of Men: Dwarves tend to be craftsmen, as Ruby also pointed out, and they probably will see good solid craftsmanship, things that last, as most commendable. For instance: a kingdom that remains the same for eternity, lasting peace... Steady, static institutions that survive history's turmoils.
But it's the nature of Men to create fleeting things. The legacy of Men seems to be in myth, in untangible things: look at Aragorn and his parentage - he's of course a real person, but on the other hand there's nothing really lasting about him. The only steady, lasting factor about him is in his blood, and that is perhaps the most fleeting thing of all?
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 31, 2004 07:15
Well said Figwit!

Come to think of it, perhaps Gimli's rather negative evaluation of the 'deeds of Men' has to do with the nature of the Dwarves as opposed to that of Men:


I thought the very thing while folding my laundry (groan) the other day. The Dwarves spend countless years and countless working hours in Moria. And look what became of Moria. Gimli may have thought that if the deeds of the great race of Dwarves , "came to naught," then surely those of men would too. I suppose even Dwarves can be guilty of a little ethnocentricity.
Figwit
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Post RE: Quote of the Week- July 19th 2004 (5.IX. The Last Debate)
on: July 31, 2004 08:02
I suppose even Dwarves can be guilty of a little ethnocentricity.


LOL! I know I'm not supposed to post oneliners posts (lots of 'post' in there) but that's a funny (but correct) way of seeing it. I guess there's quite a bit 'ethnocentricity' in LOTR, if you'd really keep an eye open for it. We're just a little blinded by all the interspecies friendship going on
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