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Figwit
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Post 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 02, 2004 10:31
Some questions to get us started. As ever, you're free to pm me with other ones.

1) There's a very different feel to this chapter compared to the ones in Book 5. What are some of the differences?

2) What do you think the main theme of this chapter is? Why?

3) What do you think about the Silent Watchers? What do they symbolise? What are they?

4) The character of Sam became increasingly important in Book 4, and here he is the centre of attention. How does he deal with the Ring? Why, in your opinion, doesn't he give into temptation? PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with the changed relationship between Sam and Frodo.

[Edited on 4/8/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 04, 2004 04:08
1) There's a very different feel to this chapter compared to the ones in Book 5. What are some of the differences?


Well, it feels boring, and Tolkien creates this effect by talking too much about Sam seeing orcs and Sam thinking about Frodo Nah, I'm sorry, just kidding.

The main difference imo was that, compared to Book 5, it sort of singles out only one event: the same amount of time is spend on Sam getting from Shelob's Lair to where Frodo is being held, as to the entire ride of the Rohirrim, or the entire journey through the Paths of the Dead... It seems more detailed, and in a way - though really it's slower because less happens in the same amount of pages - it also seems to go a lot quicker. There's a certain urgency to this chapter, which lends it some speed.

Another difference is that this is the most violent chapter of the whole book. This chapter alone would make me reconsider ever reading this book to my hypothetical children before they're 10.
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 07, 2004 05:56
1) There's a very different feel to this chapter compared to the ones in Book 5. What are some of the differences?


Another difference is that this is the most violent chapter of the whole book. This chapter alone would make me reconsider ever reading this book to my hypothetical children before they're 10.


I don't know whether my following observations apply to this chapter in particular only, or to the entire difference between all the Mordor chapters and the parts of the book that deal with the siege of Gondor: I completely agree with your point of view on the increased level of violence in chapter VI.1, Figwit, and I'd like to add that the atmosphere is much bleaker, grimmer and more desperate than that of the previous chapters -- even if there was a war going on some pages before. The descriptions of both the battle on the Pelennor Fields and that at the Morannon seem to me heavily stylized in many paragraphs - consider the ride of the Rohirrim, for example, who are portrayed as singing and fighting at the same time. I don't know about you, but as for me, singing would be the last thing I'd do on a battlefield. Passages like this depict war as heroic, glorious, certainly fierce, but also noble. However, in the darkness of the orc tower, we get somehow back to the "reality" of cruelty, blood, dirt, and torture.

3) The character of Sam became increasingly important in Book 4, and here he is the centre of attention. [...] Why, in your opinion, doesn't he give into temptation?

I guess the answer to that question is quite easy. The Ring tries to manipulate his desire for power and greatness -- but how can you manipulate these kinds of desire in a person who barely has them? Of course, Sam sees himself as a revered hero and ruler for some fleeting moments; on the other hand, he knows instinctively that he is not fit for that role: A little garden of his own is all he needs. Tolkien has often been accused of propagating a totalitarian vision in his book, but IMHO, this passage would be excellent proof for an anti-totalitarian view: It's the virtues of modesty and self-imposed limitations that save the day (and not only Sam's love for Frodo). There are not a few readers who consider Sam to be a very annoying character in his simple-mindedness and his narrowness of vision; nevertheless his plainness does have its good side-effects, and this moment (when he refuses to wear the Ring) is really his finest hour, IHMO.


[Edited on 7/8/2004 by Aervir]
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 08, 2004 03:57
The descriptions of both the battle on the Pelennor Fields and that at the Morannon seem to me heavily stylized in many paragraphs (...) Passages like this depict war as heroic, glorious, certainly fierce, but also noble. However, in the darkness of the orc tower, we get somehow back to the "reality" of cruelty, blood, dirt, and torture.


Yes, I quite agree. I guess that is why I didn't mind the singing soldiers on the Pelennor Fields: it's easy for a child to understand that thát isn't real. But the chapters in Mordor are realistic in every aspect: the slaughter is real, the fear is real, the lack of water and what it does to your body is real... Though these are not my favourite chapters of the trilogy at all (too much Hobbit) Tolkien does show what a great author he is here by pulling us into the bleakness of war and suffering, even in its heroic moments.

There are not a few readers who consider Sam to be a very annoying character in his simple-mindedness and his narrowness of vision; nevertheless his plainness does have its good side-effects, and this moment (when he refuses to wear the Ring) is really his finest hour, IHMO.


I couldn't agree more Aervir
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 09, 2004 07:47
I agree with both of you concerning the level of violence in this chapter. It's graphic and there is plenty of blood, sweat and tears.

1) There's a very different feel to this chapter compared to the ones in Book 5. What are some of the differences?

This chapter is slow paced, excruciatingly so throughout. Time seems to move in slow motion. There is an ever-present sense of anxiety. I didn’t know where Sam’s next step may lead to or what he might encounter. My senses were assaulted with a cloying revulsion. Visually there are the Silent Watchers, the dark and the shadows, the dead Orcs scattered about, Shagrat finishing off Gorbag and then licking the knife, Frodo in his wretched condition. We smell Shelob, Orcs, death, and blood. Every sound also seemed to be magnified or distorted. Emotionally, I felt what Sam felt: fear, staggering loneliness, horror, revulsion, amazement, pride, joy, anger, love, hopelessness and more. Physically, I too become weary as Sam moved through this chapter; it was mind numbing, nerve-wracking work to take this journey with Sam.

I think the main difference between this chapter and those of Book 5 is one of hope. In the chapters of Book 5 there are many people. If one fell on the battlefield there was always the chance that he’d be rescued and receive some kind of medical assistance or at least die in the arms of another caring soul. We also had many heroes with exceptional prowess and skills in battle (and out of it). We have: Gandalf with his special power of empowering people with hope; Aragorn with his power to motivate and heal; Théoden and Éomer with their indomitable spirits; Éowyn and Merry with their determination to make a difference; Pippin with his need to be of service; and Legolas and Gimli with their undying loyalty. There were others too of course. Each of these people influence each other or the outcome of the chapters in one way or the other. In The Tower of Cirith Ungol it’s all up to one small Hobbit: Samwise Gamgee. And he is utterly alone. He must rely on his own wits and strength of character. If Sam can’t save Frodo, then what? He must either save Frodo or take the ring and destroy it himself. He is utterly alone with this overwhelming responsibility. No one will come to his aid or raise his spirits.

2) What do you think the main theme of this chapter is? Why?

I believe the main theme of this chapter is self-sacrifice. Sam gives his all to save Frodo. He is determined and willing to die in trying to do so.

‘He no longer had any doubt about his duty: he must rescue his master or perish in the attempt.’

And then,

‘The perishing is more likely, and will be a lot easier anyway.’

Sam’s selflessness is a striking contrast with the selfishness and self-centeredness of the Orcs.

3) What do you think about the Silent Watchers?

I think that the Silent Watchers are a formidable, effective defence. They are grotesque and fear inducing. The Silent Watchers also serve as a reminder that one must be ever vigilant. Once the Tower of Cirith Ungol was the property of the Lord of Gondor and served to guard against evil escaping from Mordor; now, of course, it is under Sauron’s control. It seems ironic that something once meant to protect that which is good has become possessed by the very evil that it was meant to provide protection from. Okay, that was a mouthful but I think you get my meaning.

What do they symbolise?

I think the Silent Watchers symbolize the guard posts of a prison or of a POW camp. The entrances and exits of prisons are watched at all times to ensure that no one escapes or enters without express permission. The doors are kept locked and barbed wire or electrical fencing further ensures that no one enters or leaves unknowingly. Prison guard posts have human guards, of course, as well as searchlights that constantly scour the prison grounds for unusual activity (much like the Silent Watchers do). Today there are most likely TV screens and constant surveillance by cameras. Prisoners are keenly aware of the boundaries imposed upon them: a point of danger that they dare not cross, that point at which the alarm is sounded. These Silent Watchers certainly do sound a ghastly alarm making escape highly unlikely.

The Silent Watchers could also symbolize one of the greatest obstacles on the path to achieving a goal. For example: writer’s block to a writer; stage fright to a performer; paralysing fear under fire for a soldier; a fear of failure so profound that it stops a person from reaching his or her goal.

What are they?

They are most likely the creation of the Witch King of Angmar or built to honour him. The figures themselves seem to be representative of his pet carrion fowl that he and his fellow Nazgûl ride and use to terrify their enemies. The Watchers have the same qualities as the Witch King: the presence of malice and the ability to instill dread. They are like great machines: mindless, useful, and programmed for one purpose and one purpose only.

More to come later...
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 10, 2004 11:34
This chapter alone would make me reconsider ever reading this book to my hypothetical children before they're 10.
"Accidentally" leave it where one of your hypothetical children might pick it up and read it, and hold yourself innocent.
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 11, 2004 02:48
LOL, LadyEowyn, now there's a thought... or... they just have to wait with Book 6 until they're 10 hypothetically speaking


The Silent Watchers could also symbolize one of the greatest obstacles on the path to achieving a goal. For example: writer’s block to a writer; stage fright to a performer; paralysing fear under fire for a soldier; a fear of failure so profound that it stops a person from reaching his or her goal.


I very much like your idea here. They don't really do anything, you simply can't pass. It's only when Sam uses the phial that they are 'blinded' and you can walk past their gaze.

The idea I got about the Watchers was that they 'see' you, and that this is what holds you back. I need to think about a way to explain this a bit better though
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 11, 2004 07:22
4) The character of Sam became increasingly important in Book 4, and here he is the centre of attention. How does he deal with the Ring? Why, in your opinion, doesn't he give into temptation?
The Ring tries to manipulate his desire for power and greatness -- but how can you manipulate these kinds of desire in a person who barely has them? Of course, Sam sees himself as a revered hero and ruler for some fleeting moments; on the other hand, he knows instinctively that he is not fit for that role: A little garden of his own is all he needs. ~ Aervir

Well said Aervir!

I’d just like to add that I think that there is a power and greatness to Sam that isn’t readily apparent. That is one of genuine contentedness. Few of us are content with our lives. We, as humans, have a tendency to want more than we have or to be more than what we are. Sam is clearly content with his lot in life. To me this can be a powerful way to live one’s life: free of perceived want. Sam has desires, of course, but they are realistic and attainable rather than grandiose and unattainable.
‘The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.”

This is one of my favourite quotes as it says so much about Sam. Sam honestly loves the simple life. He is free from the lust for power over others or the desire to be great in the eyes of others. He is free from the greed and the desire to control, which enslave so many people. Sauron would not be able to understand Sam’s simple power and this makes Sam a powerful adversary indeed.

Sam doesn’t give into temptation because of his Hobbit common sense. He knew that the ring was trying to trick him. He had seen its effects on others and understood how devastating these effects could be.
It's the virtues of modesty and self-imposed limitations that save the day (and not only Sam's love for Frodo) ~ Aervir

I agree.
There are not a few readers who consider Sam to be a very annoying character in his simple-mindedness and his narrowness of vision; ~ Aervir

I know there are many that share the sentiment that you’ve expressed in your quote Aervir. As for me, I have a great deal of admiration for Sam. What I like the most about him is his wonder at the simple things in life: a deep abiding gratitude for the many things that many others take for granted. Sam is pragmatic, dedicated, and altruistic. IMHO, There is something quite ‘spiritual’ about him.

Perhaps Tolkien lets us get to know Sam too well. There isn’t much mystery surrounding him. With Gollum/Smeagol, Denethor, and Grima, on the other hand, we are forever left questioning ourselves about their motives. And I, too, like many readers, have to admit a fascination with the darker side of human behaviour.
The idea I got about the Watchers was that they 'see' you, and that this is what holds you back. I need to think about a way to explain this a bit better though ~ Figwit

Thanks Figwit . It did take a lot of brain strain to come up with that answer. I found myself going to bed at night thinking about it as I went to sleep. The first thing that came my mind was that the Watchers might represent one’s unconsciousness or most specifically, one’s superego (in Freudian terms). Either of these can stop us in our tracks and they are ever vigilant regarding our behaviour. So in that respect the Watchers in our mind can ‘see’ us. Phew, I at first considered that answer too far out there and I feared that anyone who read it would think I had lost my mind. I’m taking that risk now and have added it because it seems to ‘flesh out’ my idea. I'm looking forward to reading what you come up with.

LadyEowyn really has a wonderful sense of humour. LOL
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 11, 2004 10:01
The first thing that came my mind was that the Watchers might represent one’s unconsciousness or most specifically, one’s superego (in Freudian terms). Either of these can stop us in our tracks and they are ever vigilant regarding our behaviour. So in that respect the Watchers in our mind can ‘see’ us. Phew, I at first considered that answer too far out there and I feared that anyone who read it would think I had lost my mind. I’m taking that risk now and have added it because it seems to ‘flesh out’ my idea. I'm looking forward to reading what you come up with.


Yes, that's a great way of putting it. And Galadriel's light might be seen as a way of using 'knowledge' to conquer 'fear' - because fear is the main weapon of the Superego. I like that idea! It also emphasizes the idea of 'seeing', which I found very striking here, especially since Tolkien writes elsewhere that Nazgul don't see very well. So this is worse than blind fear: this is fear that has eyes. And the ultimate fear is of course one giant eye.... Aaaaah, I think we found something here
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 12, 2004 07:42
Thanks Figwit!

I love what you said about Galadriel’s light. Knowledge greatly diminishes fear and sometimes eradicates it altogether. Sam, too, was the perfect person to carry her light and he, himself, has a great deal of self-knowledge.
Tolkien writes elsewhere that Nazgul don't see very well. So this is worse than blind fear: this is fear that has eyes. And the ultimate fear is of course one giant eye.... Aaaaah, I think we found something here.

I do like your way of thinking!

[Edited on 12/8/2004 by RubySandybanks]
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 13, 2004 04:48
Well, this is no contribution to the discussion, so feel free to delete this post, Figwit , but I just have to get of this: I would never have thought to hear the tem 'Freudian superego' used in connection with Cirith Ungol. So I'm waiting for your Freudian interpretation of Lord of the Rings, mayybe taking into consideration the 'eye'/'I' issue. Academic world, here you come.

Edited: Can't spell.

[Edited on 13/8/2004 by Aervir]
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 13, 2004 10:32
LOL! Watch Elrond's Library for a new section: 'Freud & Tolkien: What a pair!'

But the idea of the 'being seen'... I've been thinking about that a lot since I posted my reply and I've been finding all kinds of links: take the Ring for instance - when you put it on you're 'invisible'. But not to all, there's some that will always see you: the giant, everseeing eye (it's lidless, it can't even blink), but also the 'blind' Nazgul. If I were going all freudian on you (or Lacan, whatever) I could say that the Ring represents the Ego, the need for your vices to become invisible to others; the Eye is the Superego (the always watchful external categories of conduct) and the 'blind' Nazgul could be the It or Es, the blind impulses of lust and fear...
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 15, 2004 10:20

I could say that the Ring represents the Ego, the need for your vices to become invisible to others; the Eye is the Superego (the always watchful external categories of conduct) and the 'blind' Nazgul could be the It or Es, the blind impulses of lust and fear...


Okay, that is quite an interesting thought indeed, Freud or no Freud... But, please, don't try to bring up Lacan here as well - right now, I'm desperately trying to escape from the abominations of literary theory into the pop culture world of the WWW. But if you do really understand what this guy(Lacan, I mean) is writing about (I must admit that I just don't have a clue ), Figwit, I'll fall down on my knees and worship you! Especially if you succeed in connecting his writings with the Lord of the Rings.
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 16, 2004 01:19
Especially for you, Aervir, I'll try to come up with something
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 16, 2004 07:53
LOL Figwit and Aervir,

Being a scholar at a prestigious university, it is certainly not inconceivable that Tolkien would have discussed Freud and his theories with his colleagues. It is fun to think about how Freud might have influenced the ‘Greats’ of his day: especially novelists in their character development.

How I would have loved to sit in on some of Tolkien’s discussions even though I’m sure they would be way above my head.
I would never have thought to hear the term 'Freudian superego' used in connection with Cirith Ungol. ~ Aervir

Did you happen to see the lovely picture of the Klingons that atalante_star posted in 5.V. The Ride of the Rohirrim & 5.VI. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields? There’s a connection I would never have made but it’s an interesting one, eh?

Now that just goes to show that the interpretation of a piece of written work is in the mind of the reader.
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 16, 2004 10:32
Yeah, I saw the picture of the Klingons, too, -- I nearly fell off my chair in the Internet café because I was laughing so hard. The other customers must have thought me quite weird, but that's something I should be accustomed to by now...

As for Tolkien and Freud, however...


Being a scholar at a prestigious university, it is certainly not inconceivable that Tolkien would have discussed Freud and his theories with his colleagues. It is fun to think about how Freud might have influenced the ‘Greats’ of his day: especially novelists in their character development.


As much as I hate to contradict you, Ruby, somehow I just can't imagine Tolkien discussing Freud, or if he did, I don't think he would have liked him, being the traditional Catholic with a very strict view of sexuality that he was. I don't think he would have appreciated Freud's way of looking at literature, either. I remember reading one of Tolkien's letters where he refused to help a student or a literary scholar with an interpretation of the Lord of the Rings, quoting in fact Gandalf's words "He who breaks a thing to find out how it is made has left the path of wisdom." I guess Tolkien would have preferred to discuss Old and Middle English phonology. That doesn't mean, IMHO, that you can't apply Freud to Tolkien, but I don't think that the author regarded him as a conscious influence on the development of his characters. Schnitzler might have, or D.H.Lawrence, I don't know, but certainly not Tolkien.


How I would have loved to sit in on some of Tolkien’s discussions even though I’m sure they would be way above my head.


A bit more self-confidence, please! Or as my mother would say right now: "Even in Oxford they need water for cooking."
(That's one of her strange sayings -- she sometimes reminds me of the Gaffer... )


[Edited on 17/8/2004 by Aervir]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 16, 2004 11:04
Aervir, your Klingon story is funny. LOL

Perhaps I gave you the wrong idea as to what I meant by 'discuss'. You say it well here,
I just can't imagine Tolkien discussing Freud, or if he did, I don't think he would have liked him, being the traditional Catholic with a very strict view of sexuality that he was. I don't think he would have appreciated Freud's way of looking at literature, either.

I agree with you totally. I'm sure if he did indeed discuss Freud it would be more in the form of argument or heated discussion. I didn't mean to imply for a minute that Tolkien liked Freud.

Interesting letter story. One of these days I'll read his letters.

I do like your mother's saying. Very wise. Very Gaffer(ish). I'll remember it. Thanks.
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Post RE: 6.I. The Tower of Cirith Ungol
on: August 17, 2004 08:23
Lol Aervir, your mother does sound a bit like the Gaffer.

That doesn't mean, IMHO, that you can't apply Freud to Tolkien, but I don't think that the author regarded him as a conscious influence on the development of his characters.


Those are the most interesting ones! I'm a pretty big Derrida-fan (deconstruction) and I find his theory about the 'whites in the text' one of the most wonderful inventions of philosophy: it's a key that unlocks everything. You can apply Einstein, catholic doctrine or psychoanalysis to any text you like to see what the person who wrote it was thinking - it's like digging into someone's mind and wildly interpreting. What you learn is of course not what that person was thinking, but what you're thinking. I always read LOTR that way though Freud is a new one. Definitely needs further researching, though.
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