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Figwit
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Post 6.II. The Land of Shadow
on: August 08, 2004 09:26
1) What is the atmosphere of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

2) What are the significance of the star and the sun? Is Galadriel really behind it? What else could it be?

3) Frodo and Sam keep talking about luck. How 'lucky' are they? Is it coincidence or fate? This question is the subject of PbHf's Quote of the Week, so please discuss this question there.


[Edited on 10/8/2004 by Figwit]
atalante_star
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Post RE: 6.II. The Land of Shadow
on: August 11, 2004 04:13
1) What is the atmosphere of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it? 2) What are the significance of the star and the sun? Is Galadriel really behind it? What else could it be?


Am going to work at these two together

This chapter is pretty dark and depressing, in actual content and the way Tolkien describes the journey and the land of Mordor. But piercing through the darkness are moments of great beauty and clarity.

I would say that this chapter has two main themes:

- Hope and hopelessness. Also about the difference between internal and external hopelessness - even though it seems at several points as if Frodo and Sam - in the dead and forsaken land of Mordor - have given up, since they receive hope from outside.
- The "bigger" picture.

Hope and hopelessness – pretty self-evident from quotes:

Examples of hopelessness - Frodo and Sam:
"We must get off this road somehow." "But we can't," said Sam, "not without wings."

"But this blind dark seems to be getting into my heart. As I lay in prison, Sam, I tried to remember the Brandywine, and Woody End, and The Water running through the mill at Hobbiton. But I can't see them now."

Even when the WK has been killed .. "And I'm so tired. And the Ring is so heavy, Sam. And I begin to see it in my mind all the time, like a great wheel of fire."

"Lead me! As long as you've got any hope left. Mine is gone."

Examples of hopelessness and oppression - surroundings:
"Perching now on the wall beside the ruined gate the Nazgûl sent out its deadly cries. All the cliffs echoed."

"Day was coming again in the world outside, and far beyond the glooms of Mordor the Sun was climbing over the eastern rim of Middle-earth; but here all was still dark as night."

"Orodruin was still belching forth a great fume that beaten upwards by the opposing airs, mounted higher and higher, until it reached a region above the wind and spread in an immeasurable roof"

And in one of Tolkien's best pieces of descriptive prose:

"In the glens of the Morgai on the other side of the valley low scrubby trees lurked and clung, coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with the stones, and withered mosses crawled on them; and everywhere great writhing, tangled brambles sprawled. Some had long stabbing thorns, some hooked barbs that rent like knives. The sullen shrivelled leaves of a past year hung on them, grating and rattling in the sad airs, but their maggot-ridden buds were only just opening. Flies, dun or grey, or black, marked like orcs with a red eye-shaped blotch, buzzed and stung"

Examples of hope:
"Half fearing a breaking plunge down on to unseen rocks the hobbits landed, in a drop of no more than a dozen feet"

"Unbelievable, but unmistakeable. Water trickling."

"the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."

The bigger picture – the sun and the star

Hmmmm – have just realised its 3am *sigh* I think I'll come back and edit this tomorrow and finish this off!

Quick thoughts to be enlarged – Galadriel? Really? I had honestly never considered it was her work. More that bad can never truly win – that there is always light after dark, silver linings to every cloud. That the Valar are still around – this precedes [what I originally wrote deleted for spoilers] something that will happen soon that reinforces the notion of a "higher" power at work.

To be continued ...
atalante_star
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Post RE: 6.II. The Land of Shadow
on: August 15, 2004 01:42
**Vague spoilers ahead for some ideas behind the Silmarillion, the Valar, and the "bigger" Tolkien mythology**
2) What are the significance of the star and the sun? Is Galadriel really behind it? What else could it be?

OK ... maybe this is a bit more than a day later ... but hey LOL

The Sun:
over the Vale of Anduin the Sun was rising above the eastern shadow, and the south-west wind was blowing. Théoden lay dying on the Pelennor Fields.
...
The rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West ... The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom.

I don't think this could be said to be anything to do with Galadriel. As lovely as the lady is, she can't influence the rising of the sun or affect large-scale weather patterns. As with the star, I would say it is more to do with the fact that hope is never-ending, that even in the blackest night there will be some way to bring hope back into life.

Tolkien often shows hope with the rising of the sun. Though now I'm sure I won't be able to think of many examples - let me think - Erkenbrand at Helm's Deep, the coming of Fingolfin into Middle-earth, the birth of Man. And here again he uses it, bringing a small ray of hope back into their lives, and they see (somehow) the end of the Witch-King.

He also very much here uses the sun rising as a link between the events in Mordor and the events out on the Pelennor Fields - the south-west wind blowing Aragorn and the ships upstream, Theoden on the battlefield.

The Star:
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

Now, Galadriel I suppose could be implicated here. But only slightly, I think, and only in a obvious parallel between the light of the star and the light of the Phial of Galadriel (giving light when all other lights go out)

But again, I think this is bigger than anything than Galadriel could do. Its more about the Valar, and the rules of the world.

The Valar are the "archangelic" powers of Arda that were created by Iluvatar. In the early days of Arda, they played a pretty active role in the shaping of life and time, but during the second and third ages, their role became a lot more passive, to the point where many readers of the books feel that the Valar had deserted Middle-earth completely.

I don't. The Valar's job was never to run the world, but to guide it - to act as stewards, in a similar situation to Galadriel and Celeborn being only the stewards, rather than the rulers, of Lothlorien.

During the Third Age, I think we see the intervention of the Valar in signs such as Sam seeing the star, the eagles turning up in the nick of time ...
If we look at what Sam thinks when he sees the star:
the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.

This would seem to me to be a thought that was probably beyond Sam's normal thought processes (sorry Sam!) and reflects much more the cyclical nature of Tolkien's whole mythology rather than just the simpler idea of good and evil shown in LotR.

Erm ... perhaps I'd better stop there before descending into a treatise on the nature of good and evil in Middle-earth :dizzy:
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.II. The Land of Shadow
on: August 15, 2004 10:33
I wanted to put in my two cents about the sun and the star, too, but atalante_star beat me to it, and I don't think I could write much that she hasn't already said. So I'll give only a short summary of my original thoughts: When I re-read the passage about the star, it occurred to me that you might interpret the phrase light and high beauty for ever beyond the shadow's reach in quite a depressing way; it's the description of universe full of natural beauty and seemingly indifferent to the temporary plights of human beings or hobbits. But, of course, this idea is rather far-fetched because the notion of an indifferent cosmos wouldn't fit into the author's world-view at all. That's why it must be the Valar, who are behind this. Not Galadriel, for that matter. But could it be Elbereth? After all, she is the Queen of the Stars and the mightiest of the Valier, and I've somehow seen a certain similarity between Galadriel and her -- they both seem a bit like representations of St. Mary to me, especially Varda (that must be my Catholic upbringing ) -- ladies of light, listening to other's people's needs or even prayers, . Oh well, I think the theological interpretation of Lord of the Rings must have been done already, too...

[Edited on 16/8/2004 by Aervir]
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.II. The Land of Shadow
on: August 15, 2004 10:34
atalante_star, I’m glad that you’ve decided to join us in this discussion. You have already delved into the major themes of this chapter. I would not given much thought to The Bigger Picture so I’m glad you did. I haven’t read the Sil yet but I always enjoy the background information that so enriches Lord of the Rings.

Anyway here are some of my thoughts on The Land of Shadow.

1) What is the atmosphere of this chapter? How does Tolkien create it?

This is another bleak chapter. I quite literally plodded along with Frodo and Sam through it. Tolkien uses strong negative imagery to create a nightmarish landscape and impossibly hopeless circumstances for Frodo and Sam. Paragraph after paragraph is littered with dark imagery describing the horrid conditions that the Hobbits now find themselves in. On one page alone Tolkien uses the following descriptions:

…wander fruitless down into the dust
…to be lost among the dead stones
“…if it’s poisonous, or something that will show its badness quick…”
…unpleasant taste, at once bitter and oily…
…the beginnings of a rough wall along its edge warned them…
…gloomy ridges…
…Mordor was a dying land, but it was not yet dead.
And here things still grew, harsh, twisted, bitter, struggling for life.
…low scrubby trees lurked and clung
…coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with the stones
…withered mosses crawled on them
…everywhere great writhing, tangled brambles sprawled.
…long stabbing thorns
…some rent barbs that hooked like knives
…sullen shrivelled leaves
…grating and rattling in the sad airs
…maggot-ridden bulbs
Flies,…buzzed and stung…
…clouds of hungry midges…

Tolkien’s description certainly does set a mood of hopelessness. And he goes on and on. We feel the Hobbit’s weariness, thirst and hunger. I know that adversity builds character but, IMHO, Tolkien overdid it here. I found myself asking, “Why couldn’t Frodo or Sam, at the very least, have found another water bottle after they came upon the two Orcs fighting?” Something, anything to make their quest more bearable. Yet, they plod on and on. Sam amazingly manages to keep his spirits up especially in front of, and for the sake of Frodo.

It’s yet another dark, depressing chapter but as atalante_star has pointed out there are moments of hope. I particularly like this quote; I know atalante_star has already quoted it but I think it worth repeating,
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.

It is an awesomely beautiful statement.

2) What are the significance of the star and the sun?

The sun represents a new dawn, a new beginning. I could almost hear the cock’s crow in Minas Tirith when I read,
It was the morning of the fifteenth of March, and over the Vale of Anduin the sun was rising above the eastern shadow, and the south-west wind was blowing.

Here Sam says among other things,
The wind’s changed.

We’ve heard this statement before and it once again gives us hope. *Just a thought: Sam shows a great deal of insight here,
“He’s not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there.”

Astute thinking, I think, for a hobbit such as Sam who is generally thought to be simple minded.

Is Galadriel really behind it?

I do believe the Galadriel has influenced Sam’s perception of the sun and the star. Sam does think of her often. I tend to believe more though that it is the star in Galadriel's Phial and its closeness to Sam's heart that give Sam hope in his darkest hours. In the last chapter when Sam had given up all hope he began to sing. He sang simple stories from his youth and then, almost like magic, a ‘new strength rose in him’ and these poignant words came to him (*only second stanza quoted here):
Though here at journey's end I lie
in darkness buried deep,
beyond all towers strong and high,
beyond all mountains steep,
above all shadows rides the Sun
and Stars for ever dwell:
I will not say the Day is done,
nor bid the Stars farewell.

Sam is carrying the Phial of Galadriel ‘in his bosom’. We can assume from this that it is near his heart. It seems to me that Galadriel’s gift is touching him in a most profound way: his heart where hope exists. The song that just popped into his head, like a flash of light, revitalized him at one of his darkest hours. His sighting of the star in (which I think it’s safe to assume is Eärendil's star) that ‘smote his heart’ in he Land of Shadow could of reminded Sam of Galadriel and her words to Frodo,
“In this phial,” she said, “is caught the light of Eärendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”

The light is this statement often appears to refer to hope. I tend to think that it more likely the power of Galadriel's gift than Galadriel herself that is at work here.

What else could it be?

It could be that Sam is simply in awe of the sun and the stars. He is a gardener and he is likely a sky watcher always searching the skies for changes in the weather that may affect the growth of his gardens. He would be aware of weather cycles and the movements of the sun, moon and stars.
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