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Eressëa
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Post Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 10:12
Last time I read through FotR I stumbled across this comment made by Sam...
"Then tell us some other tale of the old days," begged Sam; "a tale about the Elves before the fading time....."
Yet later Galadriel says this of her own and the general fading....
"....Yet if you succed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweepit away. We must depart into the west, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
....Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
"I pass the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
This brought me to think about the fading of the Elves.... Did Sam just didn't know better when he talked about the fading time of the Elves as having already begun, or can the entire Thrid Age perhaps be described as the decaying age for the Elves, an age of fading?
Were perhaps all the Elves fading already, but for those few who were in some way connected with Valinor -who like Galadriel had lived in the light of the Two Trees or like Elrond had relations having lived there?

Any thoughts, ideas or theories on this anyone?

[Edited on 17/5/2009 by cirdaneth]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 11:25
I would venture an opinion that the fading of the elves truly began when Men became numerous and powerful. And that would be back towards the end of the First Age. Now what do you think of that?
Eressëa
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 11:53
I like it even better.... After all, the First Age was the Golden Age of the Elves' after that it just didn't do anything but copy itself and producing ecchoes of what they'd earlier made....
In fact I was close to suggest that myself, but I didn't dare for fear that I'd get lynched:evil:
Faerfaen
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 12:02
Were perhaps all the Elves fading already, but for those few who were in some way connected with Valinor -who like Galadriel had lived in the light of the Two Trees or like Elrond had relations having lived there?


The three rings of the elves were forged (I believe in the second age) to forestall the fading and preserve undiminished the light of their earlier days. Their yearning for this was the weakness that Sauron the deciiever exploited.

At the time of FOTR, the last holdouts of the elves (except for Mirkwood) are each protected by one of the three elven rings of power.

There are references to all this in FOTR, but more is in (as I recall) the Sil and I think UT.

I *think* the fading began after the last battle with Morgoth, when the Valar advised the elves to "y'all come on back now, ya hear?"
Eressëa
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 12:13
Well, I also think the "superiority" or unfadingness is seen in other High-Elves, though perhaps not as obvious.... Gildor and Glorfindel -both seem to still be untouched by the fading.... They still light up the world, not dwindling....
Meldanya
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 01:32
I think I agree with the "First Age fading" view. The Valar, especially Manwe, were so foresighted in many things and could probably foresee the huge conflict and drama that would ensue if the two kindreds of Eru, Elves and Men, clashed at the height of their power. I think the other reason for the gradual fading was that there was much Men had to learn from the Elves before they could come into their own. They had to be taught and mentored by the remaining High Elves, who were gradually making way (thus fading) for the dominion of the younger race .
atalante_star
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: August 29, 2004 09:08
Well as people seem to be agreeing with me, I'll go a bit further into my pet theory

I think the fading of the elves started at the falls of the Hidden Kingdoms, towards the end of the First Age. In each of these cases, it is a Man who is the catalyst for the fall. Nargothrond - Turin; Gondolin, Tuor (and Hurin); and Doriath, Beren.

I would say that this represented the first seeds in the shift of power from Elves to Man.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: September 03, 2004 04:21
Yet later Galadriel says this of her own and the general fading....
"....Yet if you succed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweepit away. We must depart into the west, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."
Lothlórien and Galadriel hadn't faded because of Nenya...
I was pretty sure that the Elves did begin to fade at the end of the first age, but it took a while to find any quotes to back me up:
The Silmarillion, "Of Men"
Of Men little is told in these tales, which concern the Eldest Days before the waxing of mortals and the waning of the Elves, save of those fathers of men, the Atanatári...
I'm pretty sure that "these tales" refers to the Silmarillion proper, which doesn't include "Akallabêth" and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", and only encompasses the First Age. Also...
In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty...Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the course of time...In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, as he most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men usurped the sunlight. Then the Quendi wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth.
But...
The Silmarillion, "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor"
But the Noldor named them also Rána,the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.
I don't think these quotes necessarily contradict each other. The Elves could have begun to wane, but not dramatically until the beginning of the First Age, when Men started to have more control over Middle-earth. But I think it's more likely that Prof. Tolkien hadn't noticed the slip or changed his mind.

I think the fading of the elves started at the falls of the Hidden Kingdoms, towards the end of the First Age. In each of these cases, it is a Man who is the catalyst for the fall. Nargothrond - Turin; Gondolin, Tuor (and Hurin); and Doriath, Beren.

I would say that this represented the first seeds in the shift of power from Elves to Man.
Good point... I've always (well, not always, but for a few months or since I thought about it or something) thought that the beggining of one llama and the end of another marked a shift in power between good and evil - the exiled Noldor returning to Beleriand and the creation of the Sun and Moon, contesting the power of Morgoth; Morgoth being thrown into the Void; Isildur taking the Ring at the Last Alliance; and Sauron's overthrow in the War of the Ring. So a shift in power between Elves and Men fits.
But I don't think Tuor was the catalyst for the Fall of Gondolin... he could have prevented it, but Turgon didn't listen. He didn't end up doing very much... I'd say Húrin and Maeglin were catalysts, or just Húrin.
arvegil
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: September 03, 2004 09:18
I do not have my books handy, but I recall that, somewhere, the first Rising of the Sun was a symbol of the fading of the Elves and the ascent of Men.

Also, in "The Debate of Finrod and Andreth," which was dated as before the Fourth Battle, Finrod describes how the (few hundred) years away from Aman had already taken their toll as far as a loss of vitality and strength on the Noldor. Perhaps it is best viewed as a continuous process for all Elves in contact with mortal lands after the acceleration of the yearly cycles which happened during the Years of the Sun.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Elf-Life 8 - Fading [keep]
on: May 16, 2009 07:44
I'm *bumping* this Elf-Life thread so that we can discuss fading in response to the thread on Lindon.
cirdaneth
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on: September 23, 2015 06:02
*bump
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