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Figwit
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Post 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: August 30, 2004 10:18
1) Both Éowyn and the healer make a distinction between a warrior and a healer. Why? Do you agree? How do Aragorn and Faramir unite both ideas? Are there any other characters who do? PbHf's Quote of the Week deals with this questions, so please discuss it there .

2) Why is Éowyn so desperate to go into battle? What changes her mind? Why does she love Faramir? Why does Faramir love her?

3) This is the chapter of the return of the King: did you like it? Did you like the coronation? Which Aragorn do you like best?

4) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree?

[Edited on 31/8/2004 by Figwit]
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: August 31, 2004 11:07
After missing the discussion of last week's chapter, I'll now jump right back into the Book Club. However, it's going to be a bit difficult for me: The only place where I can get into CoE at the moment is our public library where you aren't allowed to bring any books with you, and I've just discovered that their copies of The Lord of the Rings have already been borrowed by somebody else -- which means that I can't quote verbatim, and I have to base my answers to this week's questions on what I remember from my re-reading the relevant chapters. So I'm looking forward to getting quotes from you all to back up my answers or to correct me if I'm wrong.

4) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree?

First of all, the White Tree is the symbol of the Kings of Gondor. It is a descendant of the White Tree of the Elves that grows in the Blessed Realm, and so the tree represents light, hope, and the blessings of the Valar throughout the ages. However, the old tree, which was said to live as long as the line of kings, died during the reign of the stewards. The fact that Aragorn now finds a sapling means that the line has been "officially" restored by what you might call the divine right of the kings in Middle-earth. Apart from that, a young tree is also a symbol of growth and fertility, and so it is really no wonder that the discovery of the sapling precedes his marriage with Arwen, which will result in an heir to the throne as well as in several other children in a country where offspring has obviously become rare (cf. Faramir's account of Gondor's nobility in The Window on the West).

2) Why is Éowyn so desperate to go into battle?
Éowyn belongs to a people and a culture that value a warrior's deeds in battle above anything else. Therefore, it shouldn't come as a great surprise that a person who was described as strong in mind and spirit by Gandalf (cf. The Houses of Healing), is a member of the ruling family of Rohan and seems to be concerned with the honour of her kinsmen and her King should be attracted by the idea of becoming a hero herself. That is one of the reasons why she rode into battle in the first place. The fact that she now longs to return to the war after experiencing its horrors is still rooted in that desire to feel useful (as far as I remember, she says something about wanting to go to battle again as long as there is a rider's vacant place to fill), but it can also be attributed to the suicidal side of her character. Her attempt to die a heroic death and to win valour and renown in her country's songs has been thwarted, her feelings for Aragorn are obviously a case of unrequited love (or should we rather describe them as admiration, envy and infatuation mistaken for love by a very lonely and embittered young woman?), and we mustn't forget that she could still be stuffering from the influence of the Black Breath, the spell of a creature that, IMHO, represents nothing less than fear and the loss of all hope.

What changes her mind?

I think she realizes that you can be useful in other ways than by wielding a sword for death and glory. I don't want to go too deeply into that right now because it rather belongs to the "Warrior or Healer?" discussion, but I guess she now knows that rebuilding what has been marred or creating instead of destroying may require what she used to call valour without renown, but these actions are not less praiseworthy at all. Apart from that, she has found a person to build a future life with.

Why does she love Faramir?

Well, does she? I know that I may be splitting hairs, but I cannot recall a single sentence which does tell us that she loves Faramir. Éowyn herself only replies to his proposal of marriage with the words: "No longer do I desire to be a queen." She never speaks of love. If one was indeed keen on interpreting this chapter in a cynical way (which was certainly not intended by Tolkien, who did speak of love in one of his letters), one could speculate about a marriage of convenience for her. But don't listen to me -- that's only the sarcastic, anti-romantic side of my personality speaking. I think she accepts his proposal of marriage because he offers her a new life where she can make herself useful by helping to build a garden in Ithilien, because he reacts to her with kindness ("Do not scorn pity, which is the gift of a gentle heart."), hope ("Even in this hour, I do not think that any darkness will endure."), understanding (he analyses the true nature of her attachment to Aragorn by describing it as the relationship between a young soldier and his captain), and maybe even a kind of freedom (Faramir doesn't seem to ask for much in return for his love: "Even if you were the blissful Queen of Gondor, still would I love you." BTW, it is her who talks teasingly about taming a wild shildmaiden from the North, not him.)

Why does Faramir love her?

Another question, the answer to which must be read "between the lines", if you don't want to come up with the explanation that he only fell for her beauty which he does mention several times. From my personal point of view, it simply began with pity on her sorrow and her despair, for he had met a kind of companion in misfortune, a fellow sufferer in the Houses of Healing, and then it grew into something deeper. As Tolkien himself doesn't bother to give any kind of psychological background to this love story, it is really hard to tell. But that could also be said about most love stories in real life.

Edited because of my inability to cope with BB code.

[Edited on 1/9/2004 by Aervir]
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: August 31, 2004 11:50
Wow, great answers Aervir! I agree with you on several points, especially where the relationship between Faramir and Éowyn is concerned, though I'm still a bit puzzled by Faramir's attitude. Although, comparing it to Aragorn's, they both seem to fall instantly for the beauty of the woman they see, rather than her personality
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: August 31, 2004 11:57
I'm still a bit puzzled by Faramir's attitude. Although, comparing it to Aragorn's, they both seem to fall instantly for the beauty of the woman they see, rather than her personality


Well, they are both male ... doesn't that evil Y chromosome suffice as an explanation?
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: September 01, 2004 07:59
Aevir, Your experience at the library sounds very frustrating. It's unbelievable that you can't bring in your own books especially since it is one that the library carries but doesn't have availabe. Grrr...

Ah yes, Aervir ~ that evil Y chromosome! LOL

2) Why is Éowyn so desperate to go into battle?

Éowyn appears to be severely depressed. IMHO she feels her greatest fear has come to pass. Remember,
“What do you fear, lady?” he asked.
“A cage,” she said. “To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
She feels restless, caged, and useless. I believe, as has seemed apparent all along, that Éowyn is suicidal. It’s not surprising. Just recently, her beloved uncle, Théoden has died; her brother Éomer and her supposed love Aragorn have ridden off on the most treacherous of missions. Her life has never been one of her own making. Éowyn had cared for Théoden for years, had fallen under the influence of Grima’s venomous words, and had felt the sting of rejection from Aragorn. And here, in Gondor’s Houses of Healing she sits waiting, waiting. The waiting for news from the battlefront is intolerable to Éowyn leaving her feeling caged and unable, once again, to make her own decisions.

It isn’t enough that she has accomplished great deeds. She wants to die while doing so. It’s as if she wants to fulfil an oath that she made to herself. Or perhaps a curse that was put upon her.

What changes her mind?

The passage of time and Faramir change her mind. As each day passes Éowyn is restored to health both physically and psychologically. The effects of Grima’s deception and the Witch King’s Black Breath become more distant. Faramir’s words are IMHO an antidote to Grima’s toxic ones. Above all, Faramir’s penchant for telling the truth (which seems to be innate to his character) is what turns Éowyn’s thinking around. She hears Faramir’s honesty and feels his genuine compassion for her. Éowyn falls in love with him.

It is interesting how Éowyn’s attitude changes towards the Houses of Healing. Initially she feels caged and restless but as the days pass and she spends more and more time with Faramir the Houses of Healing become, to Éowyn, “ of all dwellings the most blessed.”

It does sound very much like the story of Cinderella or Snow White – the awakening of womanhood at the arrival of Prince Charming, doesn’t it? Yet it is a timeless story and quite beautiful IMHO.

Why does she love Faramir?

Éowyn had an immediate physical attraction to Faramir. She knew by looking at him that he “was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.” This, of course, would be appealing to a woman born into the Rohirrim culture.

Significantly, Faramir does not tell Éowyn what to do. He allows her to make up her own mind. This must have been refreshing to her.

Most importantly though IMHO, Éowyn believes that Faramir understands her. He is articulate, empathetic, patient, caring and truthful. He generously gives her his mother’s cloak as a gift. This alone is an act of love. He speaks from the heart. Éowyn hears the magic words, “I love you.” And understands that they are sincere. :love:

Oh, you’re right, Aervir , Éowyn does not tell Faramir that she loves him. Hopefully she isn’t just settling because she can’t have Aragorn or see Faramir as a vehicle to get to Aragorn. I don’t sense that. Perhaps it simply hasn’t occurred to her yet to say those words; Faramir’s professed love is, after all, quite a shock to her psyche.

Why does Faramir love her?

Immediately he is smitten by Éowyn’s beauty. As Aervir says Éowyn’s beauty is mentioned more than once. Unfortunately, it is possible that he loved her because of her beauty. It happens all the time in the real world. A beautiful woman can be like a drug to a man; personality is often overlooked (initially anyway). I don’t believe that Faramir is that superficial though.

It is a bit of a puzzle as you say Figwit. We have only seen Éowyn’s depressed side up until now. Besides her beauty Faramir is initially attracted to, “her loveliness within her grief.” Perhaps deep down she stirs up memories of his mother as indicated in this statement,
“…and was to him but a memory of loveliness in far days and of his first grief…”
Perhaps deep down Faramir may feel he can make a real difference in Éowyn’s life and prevent her from having the same fate as his mother.

We also have to remember that Faramir isn’t fond of war. He wants peace and a return to Gondorian normalcy. That would include a wife and children. He meets Éowyn who is high born and available. Both are more obvious yet important factors.

Faramir also has the gift of deep insight and I believe that he sees who Éowyn is behind all of her outward defences. We have not yet seen Éowyn happy. It seems that it is the Éowyn that we readers haven’t yet met that he really falls in love with.

4) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree?

The White Tree is symbolic of hope, not only for the future of Gondor but also for the future of the race of men. It is as new and as pure as Aragorn’s kingship. As it grows, flourishes and branches out so shall Aragorn’s reign and the race of men.

For Aragorn it is a sign that his hope of immortality will be realized. The tree is a sign that his own reign will flourish and he will have heirs to inherit his kingship.

The White Tree symbolizes the resurrection of the glory of Gondor and is a link between those who are earth bound and those that are not; the Valar.

[Edited on 2/9/2004 by RubySandybanks]
Hareth
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: September 01, 2004 02:15
1) Both Éowyn and the healer make a distinction between a warrior and a healer. Why? Do you agree? How do Aragorn and Faramir unite both ideas? Are there any other characters who do?

I think it is, at its face, logical to assume a distinction, if not a dichotomy, between a healer and a warrior — a healer’s role is to maintain life and a warrior’s role it to take life — but that’s what makes men like Aragorn and Faramir, and other men of Numenorean ancestry, so special. They don’t enjoy fighting; they are merciful and empathetic. They fight only when it’s imperative and they have no other choice. Gandalf is another character who exhibits the qualities of both warrior and healer (although he is maiar, not man). Men of wisdom are those who are willing to serve in any way they can: “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer.”

2) Why is Éowyn so desperate to go into battle? What changes her mind? Why does she love Faramir? Why does Faramir love her?

Eowyn, still suffering under the enchantment of Grima, has given up hope, although its manifestation is not outward, like King Theoden’s, but rather inward. She perceives her only escape the spell is through death in an honorable battle. Aragorn did not initially perceive her wound, which she denied even from herself. She mistook her need for him for love. She thought that Aragorn could save her. Faramir, however, does perceive her inner wounds and helps her to heal: “Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.” Once healed, she is able to love and she falls in love with him. She recognizes similar qualities in Faramir as she saw in Aragorn — strength, compassion, and gentleness: “She looked at him and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.”


3) This is the chapter of the return of the King: did you like it? Did you like the coronation? Which Aragorn do you like best?

I liked the return of the King and the coronation. I thought it was cool that he honored remaining Fellowship members (particularly Gandalf and Frodo) and others, like Faramir, in the ceremony with roles in the ceremony. Aragorn grown and changed with experience, but he is, in essence, the same man he has always been. The potential was always there for him to be a leader, and he ascended to the position over time. His potential to be king was only revealed at the coronation: “…when Aragorn arose all that beheld him gazed in silence, for it seemed to them that he was revealed to them now for the first time.”


4) What is the meaning of the sapling of the White Tree?

In the beginning of Chapter V: The Steward and the King, those who remained in Gondor, particularly Minas Tirith, are described as having little hope: “Fair weather and clear sun had seemed but a mockery to men whose days held little hope, and who looked each morning for news of doom.” The White Tree is a symbol of both hope and a chance for the rebirth, not only for Minas Tirith and Gondor, but for Men. That the tree survived against all odds — barren landscape, cold microclimate — gives hope to Men who are also hardy and resilient. Although the Elder kindred are leaving Middle Earth, there is hope for men. Hmmm, Aragorn and the seedling both with great potential, both laid dormant for many years, and were revealed together. A gift from the Valar?
RubySandybanks
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: September 01, 2004 07:54
Hi Hareth :wave: It's great to hear similar and different points of views!

3) This is the chapter of the return of the King: did you like it?

Yes, I think this chapter is not only the pinnacle of the book, The Return of the King but also of the trilogy, The Lord of the Rings. The story has foreshadowed this magnificent moment from the beginning. It’s great to see Aragorn finally take up his position as King after all his long years of obscurity and exile. He has well earned any reward or happiness that come his way.

Did you like the coronation?

I really liked the coronation and its attention to detail. We humans place a high value on traditions and rituals. The coronation itself also pointed out that these traditions and rituals cannot always be adhered to; change is sometimes necessary and unavoidable. It reminded me of the opening and closing ceremonies of the recent Olympic Games in Athens: the sprucing up of the city, the joy, singing, music, flowers, and people dressed in finery. It highlighted: the separation of people according to group or status, flags, banners, uniforms, and jewelled objects. I felt that one of the most touching moments came when Frodo was asked to carry the crown and Gandalf was asked to place it on Aragorn’s head. Very touching. I had tears in my eyes when Gandalf said, :sob:
“Now come the days of the King, and may they blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure.”
The only thing that I didn’t like is that Faramir addressed the crowd as, “Men of Gondor,” rather than as People of Gondor. But that’s a small point hardly worth mentioning. It just bothered me a little.

In particular I enjoyed Ioreth’s viewpoint, as she was easy for me to identify with. Her excitement was contagious. I loved her story about Frodo where she gives him credit for fighting the Dark Lord all by himself and for setting fire to the Dark Lord’s tower. I loved how she said that Gandalf had said to her,
“Ioreth, men will long remember your words.”
It was if she had greater status somehow simply because she had talked to him. I believe Tolkien perhaps wanted to show here how people interpret stories differently: how folk tales begin.

Which Aragorn do you like best?

Well, I like Aragorn in all of his roles: the just King, the healer, the warrior, the ranger, and as a member and friend of the Fellowship. If I had to choose only one of these roles as my favourite it would have to be Aragorn as friend. He honoured Frodo and Gandalf at his coronation. Of Gandalf he says,
“…for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory.”
His conversation with Éomer is moving. He wanted his friends to stay and share in the joy of his wedding. I do like this side of his character. With his friends he is comfortable and free to be himself without the rigidity and ceremony required of him as King. :love:
Aervir
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: September 01, 2004 11:39

It's great to hear similar and different points of views!


Oh, I absolutely agree with you, Ruby, which is why I'm now gong to put in my own two cents' worth as far as some aspects from all your very detailed and thoughtful answers are concerned.


And here, in Gondor’s Houses of Healing she sits waiting, waiting. The waiting for news from the battlefront is intolerable to Éowyn leaving her feeling caged and unable, once again, to make her own decisions. [...] It is interesting how Éowyn’s attitude changes towards the Houses of Healing. Initially she feels caged and restless but as the days pass and she spends more and more time with Faramir the Houses of Healing become, to Éowyn, “ of all dwellings the most blessed.”


IMHO, this is a very apt comparison, Ruby, between Éowyn's initial restlessness and her statement about fearing a cage only. Perheps one could even say that a cage can also be of one's own making, i.e. the Houses of Heeling are simply a cage to her because she chooses to see them as that, not as a place of restoration and life-giving. Weren't they one of the few spots in Minas Tirith where there was a lot of greenery? -- a garden would be the antithesis of a cage or a dungeon to me.


We also have to remember that Faramir isn’t fond of war. He wants peace and a return to Gondorian normalcy. That would include a wife and children. He meets Éowyn, who is high born and available. Both are more obvious yet important factors.

Perhaps deep down Faramir may feel he can make a real difference in Éowyn’s life and prevent her from having the same fate as his mother.

Faramir also has the gift of deep insight and I believe that he sees who Éowyn is behind all of her outward defences


Three very good arguments indeed! Marrying, having a home and starting a family would really be a change after a rough life as a Ranger of Ithilien. And I had actually forgot about his gift of insight and the episode with the starry mantle. Yes, Finduilas was also a woman who kind of withered and faded away de to a mysterious grief (albeit of a very different sort).


“Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.”


This is an excellent quote, Hareth, because until now, Éowyn has always been associated with ice, frost, coolness, paleness or steel, not with light and warmth. It is as though the cold inside her has melted at last...


Hmmm, Aragorn and the seedling, both with great potential, both laid dormant for many years, were revealed together.


This idea of the King and the Tree of the King being one and the same in a certain way somehow appeals to me very much .


I really liked the coronation and its attention to detail.[...] It reminded me of the opening and closing ceremonies of the recent Olympic Games in Athens: the sprucing up of the city, the joy, singing, music, flowers, and people dressed in finery. It highlighted: the separation of people according to group or status, flags, banners, uniforms, and jewelled objects.


Well, I don't know exactly why, but this is one of the parts in the book that I am not very fond of. It seems a bit too high-flown, too grandiose, too verbose, and too much of an overstatement for my taste. And I am not enthralled by the celebrations at the Field of Cormallen in the previous chapter, either. Here, IMHO, Tolkien's style does appear to lapse into "cardboard grandiloquence" (This expression wasn't coined by me , it's actually a quote from Patrick Curry's book "Defending Middle-earth" -- the author loves The Lord of the Rings, but he apparently has some issues with a few passages, too. ). *ducks virtual rotten tomatoes* Okay, that's the personal point of view of a person who loathes the Olympics and likes Strider, a mere ranger and travelling companion, a humble-looking, hardened, weather-beaten, weary and even a bit embittered man, much better than King Elessar Telcontar.

Edited: Still struggling with BB code instructions.


[Edited on 2/9/2004 by Aervir]
Figwit
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Post RE: 6.V. The Steward and the King
on: September 02, 2004 01:44
First of all, great posts you lot! I don't really feel like there's much left for me to say, though I'm still struggling with whether I like King Aragorn or not . For now, I'm going to join Aervir's Ranger crowd.

Something that occured to me just now, reading your posts, was that in some cultures beauty and goodness are unified: a beautiful person is a good person, and a good person is a beautiful person. This is not so far away from our modern day ideas that 'your personality shines through' or that 'when you feel beautiful, you are beautiful'. Think about it: you can meet a perfect person, a model or even better, but as soon as he or she slips up you see them with different eyes.

That's why I think what Ruby said is very important:
Faramir also has the gift of deep insight and I believe that he sees who Éowyn is behind all of her outward defences.


Maybe Faramir just calls her 'beautiful' because he can see she is a good and kind person? After all, it is why we find our loved ones beautiful, even if they are not: because we see their goodness, their inner beauty. Just a thought, there.

I also think the point about the cage is a very good one: both that Éowyn feels caged in the Houses of Healing, and that she has turned it into a cage herself. Perhaps Faramir, being so at ease in the Houses and loving them so much, shows her how things can have different meanings to different people?
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