Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » BC Archive: Lord of the Rings » Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
Author Topic:
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 13, 2004 03:37

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered , looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Was Saruman's 'spirit' considering returning to the Undying Lands? And was it refused?
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 13, 2004 07:35
At least I have always seen it like that. I think he was "asking" if he can return, and the answer was a cold and straightforward "no, you're not welcome anymore". Such a sad end for someone who once was wise and respected...
Eressëa
Melkor's Apprentice
Posts: 536
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 13, 2004 08:34
Hmmmm, I don't think I ever thought of that -though I didn't gave it any other meaning either and it does sound very plausible.... It makes one wonder though -could it be that after his death, when only his Maia-spirit still endured, his mind was cleared from the corruptedness that had lingered there before? While alive he spoke in so despising ways of the West etc, when he had the possibility to be forgiven and rectify himself he declined it and yet... in his death his spirit seems to be willing to go there where he has as a live being seemingly most despised to go......
But yes I definently agree, his request was refused, he had so many chances to be "pardoned", but back then he was still blinded by so many other things.....
Hareth
Council Member
Posts: 16
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 13, 2004 11:13
...yes...and wasn't Tolkien influenced by his Catholic beliefs, and, if I'm not mistaken, in that religion, if one doesn't ask for and receive forgiveness BEFORE one's death, isn't his soul believed to be lost? That would be consistent with this text passage -- that his spirit was refused entry to the Undying Lands. And, it does seem as though he, at the very last, had a change of heart, and sought entry -- only too late.
lessien_celebrindal
Council Member
Posts: 1
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 13, 2004 06:47
I never thought about it that way. I picked up on the wind from the West blowing the cloud away, but not on the cloud looking to the West. That's very insightful... *ponders*
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 14, 2004 01:21
...yes...and wasn't Tolkien influenced by his Catholic beliefs, and, if I'm not mistaken, in that religion, if one doesn't ask for and receive forgiveness BEFORE one's death, isn't his soul believed to be lost? That would be consistent with this text passage -- that his spirit was refused entry to the Undying Lands. And, it does seem as though he, at the very last, had a change of heart, and sought entry -- only too late.


Not really. What it sort of reminds me of, and that's close to what you're saying Hareth, is that he turns towards Valinor but he wavers, he's not certain - he is not sincere.
I've been taught that you are only granted forgiveness or 'grace', which is the key to understanding christianity , long after you're dead - or, in certain branches of protestantism, long before you're born. God decides. He 'weighs your soul'.
If you do not confess, you're soul is indeed 'doomed', though I do not think this concept still holds in modern theology. However, it is not lost. It simply may not lie in holy ground.
When your soul travels to purgatory, then you have a last chance to confess your since and ask forgiveness. If your request is sincere, you'll be pardoned.

To sum it all up: I think our good old Sharkey didn't have a change of heart, and that's why the Valar turned him down. I think Tolkien, being the catholic he was, would have seen to it that the Valar accepted an honest plea for forgiveness.

Does this make sense?
Hareth
Council Member
Posts: 16
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 14, 2004 05:19
That makes complete sense! And, gives me a better understanding of both Tolkien and Christianity.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 749
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 16, 2004 03:35
Was Saruman's 'spirit' considering returning to the Undying Lands? And was it refused?
I thought so at frist, but now I think that Saruman himself considered going back to the Undying Lands but couldn't face up to going back to his superiors and those who could judge him, preferring to remain in Middle-earth.
legolasfan27
Council Member
Posts: 74
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Quote of the week -Sept 13, 04; 6.VIII. The Scouring of the Shire
on: September 17, 2004 12:29
I did see it as Saruman asking to return to the Undying Lands and being given a firm "No" but I never considered that even at this point he might still be guilty of wavering. I guess when it comes down to it, I can't understand him not actually truly being repentant...look at the end he came to! How sad for one of the Istari to come to that. Even if he had to face judgement on return to the Undying Lands, wouldn't that be worth it? Maybe, his pride and power had corrupted him to a greater extent than I considered...*puts on thinking cap*
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email